brought to you by Vase.ai market research I'm Julie your host in this

podcast and in every single episode we talk to Industry leaders marketers and

growth experts in Asia about how to use data to enhance the ROI in their marketing activities we bring you real

case studies while giving you background on how these leaders build their career

to where they are today so joining me today is the famous Chen Chow who a lot

of people already know about he has years and years of experience in reaching the gap between marketing

technology and data so to thank you for joining us today welcome Chen Chow

Anjali and it's my honor to be here so looking through uh so I know you for

quite a bit uh but just for the audience right I wish share a little bit about Chen Chow so you've been in Accenture then

you went to job Street and then Groupon I think I I started to hear a name when

you're in Groupon and after that um you started your entrepreneurial Journey uh kfit and then Faith so I'm

curious right can you take us back to your career starting point and share with us how do you get to where you are

today it was this starting point you will look at education starting point career starting point

uh career starting point okay yeah so I think when I first graduated I got a place for a master at Stanford

unfortunately I couldn't get a scholarship so that was how I started Accenture I think in Consulting I think

that's where it got thrown into different projects and good learning and I think that in that project that's why I think the people around that many of

my teammates went on to build lots of amazing stuff many of them and I'll see you on sea levels in many huge companies

so I think that's sort of where that first career built upon and then I think from there I went to job street that was

my first exposure to product I have no idea of product when I first got in decided that just to to take a different

leap of faith and went in to pick up so I think that it's a job streets was

looking at the fresh graduate student segments understanding the students segments and I think that over there as

well we use quite a bit of data as well still remember back then we were trying to do a job Street English language

assessment basically at employers law demons challenges with fresh graduates to as English language command so

created a product and just your English language assessment a short form Jailer and basically we enable people to take

the test once in every three months and because to encourage them to put in a lot of data into job Creek for every

data that you put in you will know how good you are your English compared to people of the same type so if you put in

that you are economics major you know how good your English compared to every economics major if you put that you study in unisim layer then you will be

compared against everyone using simulator so everyone will get like 567 data stuff like you're better than 88 students of this 66 percent of people of

that right and and I think that sort of buying in data gamifications and driving building on objectives and that built on

and that features that was created is still used today almost 15 years down the line let me use by done by millions

of people and maybe affect positive or negatively people's job applications over the years right so from there

after job trades uh went into Groupon so at the time Joe offered me as an inside

sales manager which is technically a tele sales but I think that when our job fair was learning that I should pick up

sales one day so that was what drives me to take that up right and fast forward

whereas I gone into jobs Groupon like after selling my two month notice uh

Joel and Tim doesn't need any more delicious already they couldn't wait for me they hired other folks to run it so I

was there for three weeks bombing around and one fine day you always basically asked me why did it without CEO so that

was how I got into CEO no experience never manage anyone thrown in into that build it up from Groupon from start from

Malaysia turn around a few other countries and eventually managing operations for Apec

and I think that the from there 2015 YOLO moment came and resided to start our own journey in kfit and then from

there got a chance to buy Groupon back so we bought Groupon southeast Asia back and went on to build fish and in 2021 we

got a chance to be acquired by pilaps can I know what are the top one to three

challenges you face when we are trying to grow in the user base or growing the market share

yeah so I think that maybe one thing that in the as we built on faith right so I think one of the conscious Choice

as we go on is back then was we don't want to be at e-wallet so until today a

lot of people may not realize that right we are not a e-wallet so and it's a conscious choice because the competitors

if you call them competitors have billions of dollars right congrat

their risks may be 10 16 billion US Dollars total US dollar shopping pay

they have billions if you look at Maybank you will look at Boost which is

owned by assetta Touch and Go which is owned by CIMB Bank and financial Lazada

right they all have Affiliates connections connect Brands everything so if you go hit ons you're asking for

trouble so I think that when we look at growing user base as well is picking the

segment so I think that one of our challenges is you cannot go mess because your Google mess hit on against

all this Giants you will get crushed so how do you play how do you work with everyone

create values and I've got a certain segment right so if you look at today at

Faith there are two parts right I think one is that we are at the malls mostly

at the mid size two three Outlets to 20 30 Outlets generally those size

for those that have few hundred Outlets we are mostly not that because we can't compete in that play for those there is

a single stall at the Pasa malam and all those things we are not there as well right because that market is a different

levels of CDs and play so we find a sweet spots that's maybe one two is working closely with all the players

that for most people think that's competitiveness right let's say today whether both rap pain touch and goals

alipace the likes of Google pay Pala dash singtel dash UOB we are all working

Partners right so and many more right so for us instead of saying that okay this is our space and we want to do it

like this why don't we work with cross like maybe something that people may not realize right today if you have a touch

and go app you found any fifth pay you in our QR you can just scan and get all

the feedback sitting in attack and group app for all the merchants right and if you do the linking account one time you

get it across right so that's a simple and in Singapore that feature the same feature was available for Payla DBS

Payla UOB tomorrow app singtel dash Google pay all right so it's integrated

building so think of it like for that case in Singapore let's say subway today a customer today can use a DBS

payload to pay and get a cashback for Subway tomorrow they can be able to use

a UOB tomorrow app to redeem that cashback and earn another cashback that the next day they will use a singtel

dash to redeem so it all ties back to subway but then it's now multi-platforms

right and that's being built up right so I think we obligate so I think that if you look at user base as well

traditionally you look at a user base is that saying these people need to register in your app they need to have

an account they didn't have understand but today many of our users are not in fifth app

manual users are sitting in touch and go apps the Google pay app the dbsp app Etc

and those are our users as well so I think in the end it's also looking at how the definition users how do you play

around and how do you create win-win Synergy so the fundamentals right so so

that what is user right so I think that's maybe something you look at that

what can be done what can be done right and I think I should build the user as well is always knowing the unique

economics right what makes sense what does it make sense what sounds cool but may not make sense right so I think it's

a lot of it aware of it right at what channel so sometimes you may be able to get a user super cheap

but the lifetime value that customers could be very low or it may not fit your segment so a lot

of times sometimes we may be like two zeros to get something and then with our channels and say oh wow this is

super cheap but then we mean not realize that the customers actually not aligned to us right and of course sometimes you

found that the right segment how do you be able to really really drive it right and also a lot of times it's looking at

the parts right is that think of like let's say you don't drive yourself to downloads

just by when we're doing Performance Marketing just by setting that the downloads happen when people having

Wi-Fi versus 4G or 5G reduce your cost per acquisition by

maybe about 50 percent just a simple click like that

oh very interesting okay I'm gonna there's a lot of questions that are really like line up uh let's go with the

first one I really like how you say it um don't go for the mess and pick the target segments and eventually uh as you

just not as you paint it right now after your plan is all fulfilled I can see how

you are technically capturing a lot of users even though they are not on your platform but if we go back to the

starting point um a lot of the uh I spoke with companies who sometimes just getting

started right uh the question they have is this how do I pick a segment that is not too broad but not too narrow how do

I know that if the segment I pick will actually give me sufficient market share that I'm don't leave money on the table

at the same time because it is easy to look at the mass market and feel like that's the biggest market share so what

is the technique that you use when picking the target segment yeah I think one is understanding the market dynamics

yeah unfair Vantage what is the unique about yours right so I think that's maybe one

of the things that's left for hours of cash but it's always used back at the same Merchant everyone else is not right

so you need to sort of find an angle so for this at what segment it works the

best at what segment it may be irrelevant right so so if you think on it then we

also do stock value where people can store the value but Starbucks already got their own store value people will do

it but if you look at it the roadside garage will you store a value 100 Ringgit that you likely would

right so the super big one don't need us to do this because they can they get afford the rnvs and customization to

build it the super small one doesn't need this so The Sweet Spot falls back

to the middle right so I think a lot of it is finding angles and sometimes it's

at the segment like Starbucks we didn't we do haven't worked with them at a national level but we just we do work

with them in Johor right we do have a singaporeans that come over across which is our base and

it's a segment that is wide enough to play from that Subway back then we started from northern before we went

Nationwide right so there's also different segment that we look at and say how do we

angle it right and and sometimes it's that looking at it and saying that okay is that sometimes it's a starting point

sometimes it's a desert and all for the for the play right and there's no right or wrong as well how much Capital you

have how much resources you have how much risk you're willing to take and that's all those things will tie back to

answer just on that question right on how big is good enough right so let's say you have billions and billions

sitting there that you can afford to take huge risks on yeah go for big words right if you don't

have that you have a very very limited your bootstrapping every dollar is super precious then you have to be in a very

narrow and Target and then gradually explain when you expand let's say when we launch in Connect

we didn't launch in the whole island we didn't launch in an area

we didn't even launch at a mall we launched at the LG floor of Gurney Plaza

at that time maybe 70 80 of restaurants there at the LG floor on us

that was how we launched when you went into that floor you feel that it is launched

right because it is same limited resources if you do Statewide

if you do most wider area it would not be felt but when you concentrate you get

something so a lot of time is also that's a play of course you can't be forever there but that's the starting

point and there you go so I think it's picked a starting point that makes sense like even when we started Faith incline

Valley we started in talawi in bangsar we started in uptown

and we started this as rehabas focus on FMB so those were the three area that we

started with and then we go around across gradually at on right so so it plays a angle as

you build on so I think the thinking on it dream big start small and then go from there

um I can see it from a lot of the points that you mentioned right concentrate Focus picking uh I'm curious is there

like um that how to at knowing you I know uh you know you are a data cruncher

so how do data or research play a role behind all this uh finding the right

Focus if you can give us a um a specific example that would be great as well

yeah so let's look at the where to start right so I think the one is that so

let's say I'm picking where to start certainly a few things that data that we external datas right so I think take one

one is that if you go to like Google Maps and see where the businesses are so

you know there's a certain concentrations of area you can use some data in terms of how many shops are

there in a cross sometimes it's manual right you go and look at it open and directory of the most account right sometimes it's more automated but

basically I think one is a supply and a lot of times enough people have done work to determine the demand and

Supply play and the second I think is observations which area feels like there's a concentration no do you know

the market or you don't know the market right for some other second tier City we literally draw a cross and say this is

the center point how do we draw a line right a circle within there and focus within one PM radius half km radius from

that right so so I think a lot of it is you start from a area using summer data

and these are the at the Kickstart right and then as you build a pawn let's say

example now is fast forward you already operate in the whole city so how we

balancing is that we know the supply in every mall so the thing of it sometimes we do is that you list up all the malls

in town this restaurant this mall has 344 shops we are in 68 shops that's a 30

market share why is the market share across right it by percentage and absolute value and the second one is the

buy transactions right you do the same thing right actually you might not have the entire transaction on the mall but

you have the New York transactions right and then sometimes you do observation I

do walks the malls one way to get my 10 000 steps the second way is counting 100 people in the shops and take your

snapshots across right so I think then and then you balance it out right some mouse the strength is in Supply Gap is

in demand some models is the other way around Supply is a gap the money strong

right some malls is bad in both right and some is great in both I think some of this so I think as you use data is

you use some data start from your hypothesis standpoint observations and

then pull through right of course you might have lots of data to to look through like I'm a data person so I look at data every hour and

all those kind of things but you don't want to be same into that with so much

data and you know what to do you still want to start from a hypothesis I want to try to find out you want to find out

Supply the problem and demand you're going to find out why people don't

transact let's say example you have a bunch of user why people don't transect there are many factors that can go in

there right one no one land on your app no one land on your website to the land

but they bounce quickly if you're app wise do they uninstall

that has installed uninstallation rate email wise do they unsubscribe if you do push notification do they open

or don't open or do they block your push in app the same thing right so then for

each of that if you do emails then if you open do they click after they click to the page around the

state do they bounce do they try to do transactions but the transaction fails because the OTP doesn't come up because

the ewallet ran out money or because the authorizing just the Google true

or they don't even attack all right so if you look at it they're just a mere

point of transaction doesn't happen just now in the last two three minutes we maybe talk about about 10 different

things that could have been a problem right then of each other you might need to say okay you might have suspect that

this tree is definitely not the reason this fall maybe we need to dive deeper then you go with some data to say okay

this makes sense don't make sense what is the market expectation and again now

with all this generative AI it is good at answer right what is the conversion

rate of this daily no long right and I think that today that sort of connect right the and today of course yes there

are sometimes the data doesn't work perfectly I mean that's truth but I think that a lot of it is how do you

leverage on it and you will never be perfectly full on with data but you

want to have enough to make decision and a lot of decisions you don't need perfect position

you need good enough judgment to say that this is worth investing into it or

this should be stopped immediately right that's the good enough for you to

know that why is where should we prioritize or why should you deep practice so I think most of decisions

are like that right so you get enough to go in and say okay this makes sense let's do and and move on right so you

don't need to be like oh I need to be this to be 7.33456 that level of accuracy that's

useless for this right maybe in research project project and University may make sense right but may not be for it

oh thank you you have actually uh you have actually touched upon a couple of things that I was going to ask next but

you really touch upon like um things that people should be aware when you're actually using that are not going to Rabbit Hole but at the same

time we need to form clear hypothesis to test um now I want to switch a little bit to

retention so um well Faith being uh you know

helping Merchants to get get cash back uh so I'm very curious what are the some

of the most effective marketing strategy that you have used in faith that help with retention

yeah so I think for us is to help Merchant to retain and hence if the merchant to retain consumer would do it

right so let's say for us every fifth paid transaction trigger a cashback

the only way to use cashback is you need to be retained The Comeback and hence you get the value of cashback or else

that cashback when disserted right and there's a Time bound so it's a period of time right so let's say example

for Denver then dentists that we work with they want you to go back to do dentists every six months it's very hard

for them to do it but let's say they put a 10 cashback now you do go to the dentist you pay 200 Ringgit you got a 10

20 ringgit it expires at the end of six months

so in a way it push you to do that dentist visits again within three months

six months right all the same thing medical checkup or maybe the car workshop some of the card workshops are

working with us right for you to service your car sometimes let's drag one more man two more months

customizing is 800 Ringgit five percent cash was 40 ringgit service your car on

time you get 40 Ringgit back when Auto deducted for the next car service or you

wait one more month and you lost the 40 Ringgit that drives people to go so I think a lot of it is the objective

driven and people do it subconsciously rather than saying that okay I need to

be blend through right so it's a reminder some people don't care right oh 40 over

Ringgit uh servicing car I don't care but some people a lot of people care most people care right so I think it's

into into driving that habit as well right so let's say like people with morning Chelsea every morning you go

back coffee there are three four coffee place if this place keep on giving you the cashback you're like okay this is my

habit right I go and go back and do it so or some of them they may be doing cash back and then they got let's say

you know like something in malls you have those people at the Concourse already do events then you transact you

get the cashback by the cashback you have to go back to the other store upstairs in the same mall right so that

drives you back to the store right or sometimes electronic shops they do cash back you buy the first thing you buy the

TVs let's say you buy the TV 2000 Ringgit three percent cashback you got 60 Ringgit then you'll go find something

else to buy for 60 Ringgit right like if you don't find something now you buy 200 ring stuff right whatever so they don't

really care okay what can I buy you buy two batteries or whatever so people go

through and I have seen even very rich people do that there was

one dance free that was managing billions of Ringgits or sharing on how he buy one thing and get a cash back by

the second thing and they're using cashier by the third thing and this person managed billions right and this

person still bothered to do that right and it became a fun Factor right I know enough listed companies here in Malaysia

that actually do that when they meet me they're like see I do this I do that right so it's actually quite interesting

right sometimes you look at how what people feels that the value right let's

say Penang Penang a lot of opening next people are in a negative way you see

themselves in a good way it's very fast conscious right so people really wants

to make sure that every dollars is captured and used right so for them is

that if I can get this value I get this value right so let's say stock value the same

thing right so I think we're talking about retention and not just retention but it's upselling at the same time or retention

so let's say you good this coffee place decently enough this coffee each time you pay about 10 Ringgit what we do is

we actually work with a shop to to let you top up maybe 40 Ringgit I pay 40 for

50 Ringgit top up to be used only in this Cafe so now you have actually paid 40 Ringgit

for your next few coffee there if you don't go back in the next six

months that 40 Ringgit will disappear you have already prepaid right today in

the without a tool Starbucks people would do it but most other brands people won't do it but now you enable the

people to do it and say okay let me do it right let me be upfront and they don't even remember they just need to

they can easily check and they just when they pay you just Auto do that they don't even remember say oh do I still have that cashback do I still remember

that right don't have to you just use it right and then you just Auto did that so I think it's that sort of built a habit

so I think they ask you go on retention and then it's understanding the consumer

mindset how do you be able to what kind of behavior you want to drive

back right some may be daily Behavior some maybe weekly some may be monthly

some six monthly or let's say that this you you don't want a a patient every two

months come and see your dentist as well right I mean something quite wrong with you right so you just drive the right

frequency so a lot of it is use it in a right way anyway I see even

reminding on retention right different people have different preference so let's say it's a push notification

for some people that use their app middle online pushing a notification to that at 12 30 a.m is perfectly great for

a lot of people that's annoyed right for let's say emails all our emails are

actually automatically generated and it actually learns Behavior the more you open the

more email you get so it actually learned the behavior with AIS and building tool right and we've

been doing it for the last many years without really calling it AI right let's say for example every other Merchants they actually get the reports monthly

reports of all their transactions what time what day people comes Hardware has gone up how's the different Outlets

how's the reviews at different outlets and everything all these reports for all matches 30 40

000 of them are all generated AI not done by human beings it's Auto created

and autos published for them right for them for them to review so it's actually quite

interesting right if you look at this is today a lot of things is actually

already in that work it's just that it was not branded as AI back then right to

to think of it it would back then it just I feel like automated reporting right yeah but if you think on it the

slides are all written not by human already and this world is going to come in right such a thing on it now today

when you think of doing retention how do you be able to drive it and I think that

as we talk about all this technology there's still a huge leap to pull through the rest of the country or the

rest of the world as well right there's yes in the major areas a lot of these are default people are on

it but there's still a lot of countries where people are still using cash there's still a lot of parts of

communities that people still don't believe or doing that to try so I think

how do we move that and builds the process interesting uh what you inspire me to

think about it as well for example certain times cashback or any other promotion tool rate everyone seems to

know yeah I know about the tool but actually to think deeper into as a consumer we are so easily uh we just see

the value and see the period right but what you inspire me is that actually there's a lot of thinking behind what

value to put that makes sense so that people go through that funnel to keep on using the cashback and also the period

that makes sense for the nature of the product and just like you mentioned

um but in order to do that we need to understand the consumer mindset is there like any techniques that you can share

with us on uh techniques you use to understand consumer mindset or your team

use um so I think that they understand consume myself I think one is that I

think definitely did that right which area people repeat how frequently why people like how often they repeat they

don't repeat really spend more don't spend more buy demographics as well right because let's say even they do

like retails right it's for sometimes people that pay may not be people that are using it

right so so even like maybe one example right is like even for one of the women

lingerie shops most of the payers actually mail

yes right so here's quite interesting right it and it's actually by a certain

segments and whatnot right so by age group and they're like that's how that segment connect through

as well right so so I think is using data gives you a sense so let's say example cashback

if your shops is already full at lunch time always lunchtime pack no place to

sit don't give cash back a lifestyle a lot of these shops the same shop at 1

30 1 pm you have no seats at 2 30 PM the shop is 90 empty

why do you do some cashback at 2 30 to bring some of the cost-conscious crop

and those have a little flexi time that we will then eat their lunch later or

earlier let's say you say like your big crowd is 12 to 2. to drive me you give these are the more

cashback after octave testing optimize it 11 to 2 11 to 12 and 2 to 3. then you

basically now inside have a two hour full pack lunch card now you have four hours of backline shop with the first

hour and last hour has a bit more the rewards right the same thing right

as flip the other way some places their office area with cancer is MP

right the area has not much people or flip the other way shopping malls that is crowded on weekends every day is

empty how do you drive that or even Ramada we all know in the industry that week

two week three or Rama dance is the primary people go out in Buffet the

first three four days and the last three four days usually people doing it Buffet

most of the time people spend with families so by knowing insights to data you know

how to price it how do you move to certain segments to drive it right and sometimes also is demographics like

let's say Aquarius or the KL Towers foreign tourism no question they don't

need any motivation but for them to get it sustained they might want local tourists so then how do

you target that so a lot of it is also segmentized and understanding

the numbers right so let's say example for certain hotels their buffet

breakfast like it or not they are ready to serve but today because at a certain

price rich people won't go is there a price range that you can do to drive more people to go in because after all

the food is that there's a lot of sun costs right if you look at Beauty well that's the same thing there's a lot of sun costs things has already opened how

do you drive it drinks as almost expiring food that's almost expiry how do you do it like I

think traditionally people have been doing that right and at what time if you look at it think of data in the airline

industry or hotel industry it has been there for quite some time you know that every time we went to sit on a plane the

person left of you right of you paid maybe more than you or less than you if you go to hotel the person left for you

of you maybe more or less than you it's not the same price

a crossbar if you do right handling your book across three different people bouquet at the

same time you might have different price based on certain Behavior right let's say one of the common marketing things

that people know many platform do it if you use the iPhone you are quite Rich you can shoot more

that's a typical right I think that a lot of e-commerce does that of course there's a level one basic fundamentals

but it builds right I think that people go through today if you were looking at the airline price three types open close

check close the best logic is increase the price slightly you get Penny you buy straight

away right so there's a lot of those Logics that has been done today to using data

to maximize optimize and plow into the right right player right yeah

and so we we talk a lot about um just now we talk about uh growing user base

without retentions what are the key metrics you use to define success in marketing

from your perspective yeah so I think for me is that a lot of time is that there is a input and maybe

that will put it as a output right so I think if you think on it what's the output output maybe it's like

installations or what we call monthly active customers or new customers paying

people or maybe active users so those are our brand new as output right but then the input is at what point each of

the funnels you build through right and I will say that for some of that you pull the data track it and let it be you

don't look at it maybe every single day at some of it you go super deep and in the end as well as a problem where you

dip that and where it's like you scan through make sure nothing breaks right so I think that is there's a lot of Arts

and Science balancing between the two right in terms of and because every business is very different as well so I

won't say it's a one size fit all and say every business do have all these things it doesn't work that way right so

let's say example from web and app for us people that will buy a voucher is

actually more cost effective to sell them on a web but after they set Bay on the web we will tell them the only way

to redeem is download the app the cost to get this person to download the app is actually free now because

people has paid for the voucher the only way to do is download the app to music so there's no more costs to get it

right because they that's the only way to redeem it right so it is through some

play right and that you have to sort of like understanding the nuances on it

right so let's say think of even data back then this was quite a few years ago

where in JB right we will look at it like buy some of the places the

singaporeans don't need that doesn't use their transactions and after all we

found the biggest problem they had is the place didn't offer Wi-Fi they don't use because they have no internet

and that was a problem right and that can be an easiest off if we know it so a lot of time is that why certain things

that doesn't happen or maybe certain area now is better back then certain LG floor basement one the

internet doesn't work there so people can't pick I think this problem in this last two three four years I think is mostly soft

if you look at earlier years then there's a lot of this problem right and I think things will evolve as we go

along as well all right let's say back then where we were doing the kfit business right the biggest acquisition segment

was people that changed their relationship status on Facebook those days people still changed their status

you can go in a relationship in relationship to engage I mean I can't

remember those days yeah and that was our target audience the moment you change all the ads go

there right single to in a relationship so now I say you talk to them and say okay now you're in a relationship so go

and exercise together have fun together if you break up then you say okay go out and have five meet new people

so the messaging can then fight to that so in the end we look at marketing right it's are you talking to the people

we are all consumer as well right we are bombarded by unlimited marketing out

there so it happens if you even as a marketer right ask yourself

why you respond to certain things why you don't respond to most of the things for those that you respond yourself why

you respond and let them observe if you put a part of sales material in front of shops BDS stand there or around there

and see how people react to those right if you let's say you look at

people's screen moving mouse screens or using their fingers in their phone like

where do they look at it where do they spend time where do they do spend time where they scroll through very different

so I think a lot of nuances in that right in terms of that so there'll be uh

the objective part and the subjective part right and then you are with I2 both what is your view how would generative

AI uh and the trend that we are seeing how AI going into the mass Market change marketing

yeah so I think that the today I think what it would change certain things and

it would not change certain things you can start from not changing right I think in the end as you do marketing you

still need to talk to the audience you still need to capture the buy-in from the audience right so the the audience

whether you want to do Drive acquisition people to download the app paper to sign up register people to pay for something

so that's acquisition right or retention people continue to come back so I think that AI or datas can drive that process

a bit but what doesn't change is you still need to win over the customer the consumer right remember the process

taxes a bit easier but that consumers still make that

choice in one way or another right so whether it's one of choice then repeated or is a conscious Choice along the way

but there's some choices to be made at a human being level so I think that's still not changed but I think what all

this AI has evolved and transformed is that it enables us to understand people

right so let's say today you can basically train up all this generative AI right by basically saying that okay I

have this demographics these people are this behavior these are the they reply with us this or whatnot and how do we do

it right if I want to have this rough messaging what are the few drafts that you can do what are the few images that

we can be created within seconds right it's like hours or days or weeks right so I think that it cut shot a lot of it

makes us enable us to test but it does not take away that it still need to win

over the heart of consumer so I think that's sort of where it is and I think that today in terms of we look at from

engineering learning how to write prompt it becomes super crucial right the same

topic same questions given to same five people as in slightly differently will

get very different answer and I think today that's the evolving right how do you be able to do it and there will be

things that will get disrupted there will be things that will be enhanced so I think as everyone looking

into this is how do you be able to write this and then go beyond

gotcha and um so that's my next question if I were to ask you like um as a

marketer uh what are the one to three things that you believe at the marketer today should write on this wave in order

to actually get a hit on it instead of the competitors actually getting ahead of it

hmm good question I live as a marketer I think one is that be very familiar with

all the new tools the your competitor is going to have these tools the problem is going to use these things whether you

like it or not so I think it's be familiar try it learn it and really

learn and learn relearn and to really optimize it right exchange notes don't be scared of it try it and find out what

would work right I think in the end knowing your end objective leveraging it right let's say you have a demographics

or segment or you have objection handling all those with this stuff can

be created right it can be reply built on and you train it up right so I think

that you basically like know of someone that was doing the SEO right and they

were using this charge GPT to train up so that they can learn all the things newer things and then that got enhanced

into their codes right so a lot of these things can be leveraged right so let's

say example right now if I think of okay I want to Target this segment is it

relevance and when or not how big is the segment what should I try to convince a

skeptic of that segment right so all this you now have a easy tool within

seconds or minutes be able to create and I think that there are more and more newer software as well right newer tools

that's built upon all these things as well right let's say today you can create slides within seconds you can do

many many things right across board right today even with video many of the

videos are automatically generated right and you basically feels like similar

right so I think that that's will come in so I think that if you think on it one is embrace it learn it adapt to it

right and build on and I think the second one is that the

fundamentals are still key no matter what the tools and everything the fundamentals are still there you

can't get away without fundamentals it's just that now with this the the way to

approach a fundamentals may be slightly different right so think of a good old days

right back then when the overall days are bearing Generations they only had Billboards TV and radio

hmm in the last 10 20 years we have a slurry of online world that started

created and in between there's maybe a bit of metaverse and why not start coming in into the picture but if you

think on it it's just a medium that shifted right in every if you're old

enough in a good oldest chatting you start from IRC then icq AOL then Ms and

Yahoo messenger then you go on Facebook WhatsApp Instagram and all this

thing right so and then Tick Tock will and now laminate and all this thing right so the world shift with the tools

and everything but the fundamentals doesn't shift right people still need to communicate the

same thing in marketing you still need to convince people to say people they still think of it there are multiple

theories of Market things right but if you think on it is again it's awareness acceptance and then after that people go

and activations right so I think in some form of debt you still need to go through that there's people do people

aware of your things after they aware do they know what you're doing if they know what you're doing do they think that

that's relevant to them is it useful to them and if it's passed through this space do they think that they should

take the efforts to go in to get this and are they willing to pay for it now

if you think on it is roughly this right irrespective of the medium it's just how you do it maybe how you do

it in each of the steps maybe slightly different but the fundamental doesn't change right do you answering some of those

questions and and then if you go deeper on retention the same thing right people are using what whatever they provide in

whichever world all right and after they use it do they think they want to use again do they feel good enough that they

would repeat it do they want to continue paying for it would they want to get on a subscription where they paid every

month continuously or would they want to pay at home or maybe no they're not going to do it anymore

would they go out and tell refer to others and this is telling others also their possible things right one is

saying that okay I just you see I'm not gonna tell anyone I'm just okay the other one is when you go and tell others

there are a few ways one is that if you ask them to tell and they will tell whether positive or negative or the

other one is it don't even tell and they will go and tell people everywhere and it'll go all up and go do it right so I

think in the end is that that psychological right why people do this why so you will think on it there are

many of the things that people do it that it may not make sense logically but

people do it willingly so how do you get to that mode that people will then refer

your things right go out there and tell people that yeah you should do this and encourage people even though you don't

incentivize that right and of course there's also the forbidden fruit right where people when people don't do it

people do it right so that is also that bragging rights and everything right and

even now it's across Generations right so I think as you deal with your consumers or the target audience there's

also different segment there's a segment that maybe many of you are familiar the digital native the people that grew up

with technology but as you go down this path there are also many people that

still feels a bit scared to use many things on digital world right so how do

you win over that is that your segment or not your segment if that's a segment how do you convey to them how do you

give the confidence that they won't screw it up they think of your parents grandparents uncles and

everything right how do you make that confidence to do online banking how do you make them

confident to put in their credit card details how do you make sure that they don't get scammed after that

right because the scammers are getting smarter as well right so oh yes they also have chat gbt yes you have

everything so whatever you have they have it how do I make sure that they so

it's a balancing as well right how do you pull someone in and yet give Assurance right so if you think I need

that it's multiple dimensional there actually I really like your examples to illustrate like how you pick a certain

scenario and go narrow enough in order to find the talking point by using data

um so now we actually uh going to wrap up we're going into lightning round I have three quick questions for you uh so

first question is what advice would you give to someone um who is interested in pursuing a

career in marketing yeah so I think that you care about if you think about marketing right is that

you care about getting people to grab on something or get care about people to continue using something or care about

people to tell others about something or care about people to spend more on something I think the fundamentals of

those few things right so you can do you care deeply about this or not the methods and style will change today

maybe it's this medium five years later it will be different mediums 10 years later will be different there'll be

different segments do you care about different segments all these details right and it's balancing between data

creativity and testing is it you need all free at different

blend right full data alone no observation doesn't work all observations have no data like we can

work as well and if you you have all this data everything but you're not creatively talking to people it doesn't

work empathy people care about it where people know that you care about them so I think that's maybe that right so I

think that would be sort of how I look at yeah nice uh question number two what is the

one marketing book or resources that you would recommend um so the I think good question right so

I think for me these days I think instead of reading books I think is a lot of the Articles and everything but I

think that now I would actually recommend but BRD but dot google.com anything that you have in mind and

thoughts let's go and talk about and I spent quite a lot of time talking about these days asking that but to do

everything for me right and when the company announced their quarterly earnings and lies for me when the

exchange rate goes up goes now that's about what happened U.S debt ceiling but

just a submarine for me every day and tell me what happens why not right why this person say so why this person do

that so I'm talking about every day right so I think that they and if you think of any marketing things you can go

on that right and pick it up through the I mean that's just one but I think is go

out there and pick the medium that you learn the best it could be video it

could be audio it could be reading it could be through talking it could be through short form long form

and all different ways to be through trial error it could be

true instruction formal formal instruction pick the way that you learn best and go

on it um so for our listeners who want to follow and connect with you what's the

best way to do so yeah so I think feel free to ping me on LinkedIn I think that's uh best of

course don't sell meetings I know that I'm running a marketing data related

sessions but I do get a lot of spam message and people try to sell so don't sell me give yourself try to sell to me

I'm not going to responds on it so I think that's maybe one right and I think that they and I think even if you try to

sell something to anyone you like be contextual right and find a way to

relate because or else it's just pep right so I think that the the so I think

that's maybe the best way to reach up and of course if you are in KL or

whatnot I think that a lot of events and why not sometimes I'm there so feel free to say hi and why not yeah

yes uh and and we'll use the lessons that you tell you know using data to understand you to talk to you instead of

just selling to you uh thank you so much for being here chin ciao thank you so

much for listening if you find this valuable you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or Google

podcasts also please consider giving us a rating on leaving us a review because

this really can help other listeners to find the podcast you can find all the episodes or learn more about this

podcast at wasp.ei see you in the next episodeTranscript


0:00
welcome to reading with data driven marketing podcasts this podcast is
0:05
brought to you by Hua storyi market research I'm Julie your host in this
0:10
podcast and in every single episode we talk to Industry leaders marketers and
0:16
growth experts in Asia about how to use data to enhance the ROI in their marketing activities we bring you real
0:23
case studies while giving you background on how these leaders build their career
0:28
to where they are today so joining me today is the famous chanchal who a lot
0:34
of people already know about he has years and years of experience in reaching the gap between marketing
0:40
technology and data so to thank you for joining us today welcome jinchao
0:45
Anjali and it's my honor to be here so looking through uh so I know you for
0:52
quite a bit uh but just for the audience right I wish share a little bit about Ginger so you've been in Accenture then
0:59
you went to job Street and then Groupon I think I I started to hear a name when
1:04
you're in Groupon and after that um you started your entrepreneurial Journey uh kfit and then Faith so I'm
1:11
curious right can you take us back to your career starting point and share with us how do you get to where you are
1:16
today it was this starting point you will look at education starting point career starting point
1:22
uh career starting point okay yeah so I think when I first graduated I got a place for a master at Stanford
1:28
unfortunately I couldn't get a scholarship so that was how I started Accenture I think in Consulting I think
1:33
that's where it got thrown into different projects and good learning and I think that in that project that's why I think the people around that many of
1:40
my teammates went on to build lots of amazing stuff many of them and I'll see you on sea levels in many huge companies
1:46
so I think that's sort of where that first career built upon and then I think from there I went to job street that was
1:54
my first exposure to product I have no idea of product when I first got in decided that just to to take a different
2:01
leap of faith and went in to pick up so I think that it's a job streets was
2:06
looking at the fresh graduate student segments understanding the students segments and I think that over there as
2:12
well we use quite a bit of data as well still remember back then we were trying to do a job Street English language
2:17
assessment basically at employers law demons challenges with fresh graduates to as English language command so
2:24
created a product and just your English language assessment a short form Jailer and basically we enable people to take
2:31
the test once in every three months and because to encourage them to put in a lot of data into job Creek for every
2:38
data that you put in you will know how good you are your English compared to people of the same type so if you put in
2:44
that you are economics major you know how good your English compared to every economics major if you put that you study in unisim layer then you will be
2:51
compared against everyone using simulator so everyone will get like 567 data stuff like you're better than 88 students of this 66 percent of people of
2:59
that right and and I think that sort of buying in data gamifications and driving building on objectives and that built on
3:06
and that features that was created is still used today almost 15 years down the line let me use by done by millions
3:13
of people and maybe affect positive or negatively people's job applications over the years right so from there
3:20
after job trades uh went into Groupon so at the time Joe offered me as an inside
3:27
sales manager which is technically a tele sales but I think that when our job fair was learning that I should pick up
3:35
sales one day so that was what drives me to take that up right and fast forward
3:40
whereas I gone into jobs Groupon like after selling my two month notice uh
3:46
Joel and Tim doesn't need any more delicious already they couldn't wait for me they hired other folks to run it so I
3:52
was there for three weeks bombing around and one fine day you always basically asked me why did it without CEO so that
3:58
was how I got into CEO no experience never manage anyone thrown in into that build it up from Groupon from start from
4:05
Malaysia turn around a few other countries and eventually managing operations for Apec
4:11
and I think that the from there 2015 YOLO moment came and resided to start our own journey in kfit and then from
4:18
there got a chance to buy Groupon back so we bought Groupon southeast Asia back and went on to build fish and in 2021 we
4:25
got a chance to be acquired by pilaps can I know what are the top one to three
4:30
challenges you face when we are trying to grow in the user base or growing the market share
4:37
yeah so I think that maybe one thing that in the as we built on faith right so I think one of the conscious Choice
4:44
as we go on is back then was we don't want to be at e-wallet so until today a
4:49
lot of people may not realize that right we are not a e-wallet so and it's a conscious choice because the competitors
4:55
if you call them competitors have billions of dollars right congrat
5:02
their risks may be 10 16 billion US Dollars total US dollar shopping pay
5:08
they have billions if you look at Maybank you will look at Boost which is
5:14
owned by assetta Touch and Go which is owned by CIMB Bank and financial Lazada
5:19
right they all have Affiliates connections connect Brands everything so if you go hit ons you're asking for
5:26
trouble so I think that when we look at growing user base as well is picking the
5:32
segment so I think that one of our challenges is you cannot go mess because your Google mess hit on against
5:38
all this Giants you will get crushed so how do you play how do you work with everyone
5:45
create values and I've got a certain segment right so if you look at today at
5:50
Faith there are two parts right I think one is that we are at the malls mostly
5:55
at the mid size two three Outlets to 20 30 Outlets generally those size
6:02
for those that have few hundred Outlets we are mostly not that because we can't compete in that play for those there is
6:09
a single stall at the Pasa malam and all those things we are not there as well right because that market is a different
6:16
levels of CDs and play so we find a sweet spots that's maybe one two is working closely with all the players
6:22
that for most people think that's competitiveness right let's say today whether both rap pain touch and goals
6:30
alipace the likes of Google pay Pala dash singtel dash UOB we are all working
6:38
Partners right so and many more right so for us instead of saying that okay this is our space and we want to do it
6:45
like this why don't we work with cross like maybe something that people may not realize right today if you have a touch
6:51
and go app you found any fifth pay you in our QR you can just scan and get all
6:56
the feedback sitting in attack and group app for all the merchants right and if you do the linking account one time you
7:03
get it across right so that's a simple and in Singapore that feature the same feature was available for Payla DBS
7:09
Payla UOB tomorrow app singtel dash Google pay all right so it's integrated
7:15
building so think of it like for that case in Singapore let's say subway today a customer today can use a DBS
7:22
payload to pay and get a cashback for Subway tomorrow they can be able to use
7:28
a UOB tomorrow app to redeem that cashback and earn another cashback that the next day they will use a singtel
7:34
dash to redeem so it all ties back to subway but then it's now multi-platforms
7:40
right and that's being built up right so I think we obligate so I think that if you look at user base as well
7:45
traditionally you look at a user base is that saying these people need to register in your app they need to have
7:51
an account they didn't have understand but today many of our users are not in fifth app
7:57
manual users are sitting in touch and go apps the Google pay app the dbsp app Etc
8:03
and those are our users as well so I think in the end it's also looking at how the definition users how do you play
8:09
around and how do you create win-win Synergy so the fundamentals right so so
8:14
that what is user right so I think that's maybe something you look at that
8:20
what can be done what can be done right and I think I should build the user as well is always knowing the unique
8:26
economics right what makes sense what does it make sense what sounds cool but may not make sense right so I think it's
8:33
a lot of it aware of it right at what channel so sometimes you may be able to get a user super cheap
8:39
but the lifetime value that customers could be very low or it may not fit your segment so a lot
8:45
of times sometimes we may be like two zeros to get something and then with our channels and say oh wow this is
8:52
super cheap but then we mean not realize that the customers actually not aligned to us right and of course sometimes you
8:59
found that the right segment how do you be able to really really drive it right and also a lot of times it's looking at
9:05
the parts right is that think of like let's say you don't drive yourself to downloads
9:12
just by when we're doing Performance Marketing just by setting that the downloads happen when people having
9:18
Wi-Fi versus 4G or 5G reduce your cost per acquisition by
9:25
maybe about 50 percent just a simple click like that
9:31
oh very interesting okay I'm gonna there's a lot of questions that are really like line up uh let's go with the
9:38
first one I really like how you say it um don't go for the mess and pick the target segments and eventually uh as you
9:45
just not as you paint it right now after your plan is all fulfilled I can see how
9:50
you are technically capturing a lot of users even though they are not on your platform but if we go back to the
9:56
starting point um a lot of the uh I spoke with companies who sometimes just getting
10:02
started right uh the question they have is this how do I pick a segment that is not too broad but not too narrow how do
10:09
I know that if the segment I pick will actually give me sufficient market share that I'm don't leave money on the table
10:16
at the same time because it is easy to look at the mass market and feel like that's the biggest market share so what
10:23
is the technique that you use when picking the target segment yeah I think one is understanding the market dynamics
10:32
yeah unfair Vantage what is the unique about yours right so I think that's maybe one
10:38
of the things that's left for hours of cash but it's always used back at the same Merchant everyone else is not right
10:46
so you need to sort of find an angle so for this at what segment it works the
10:51
best at what segment it may be irrelevant right so so if you think on it then we
10:57
also do stock value where people can store the value but Starbucks already got their own store value people will do
11:02
it but if you look at it the roadside garage will you store a value 100 Ringgit that you likely would
11:09
right so the super big one don't need us to do this because they can they get afford the rnvs and customization to
11:16
build it the super small one doesn't need this so The Sweet Spot falls back
11:21
to the middle right so I think a lot of it is finding angles and sometimes it's
11:27
at the segment like Starbucks we didn't we do haven't worked with them at a national level but we just we do work
11:33
with them in Johor right we do have a singaporeans that come over across which is our base and
11:39
it's a segment that is wide enough to play from that Subway back then we started from northern before we went
11:44
Nationwide right so there's also different segment that we look at and say how do we
11:50
angle it right and and sometimes it's that looking at it and saying that okay is that sometimes it's a starting point
11:57
sometimes it's a desert and all for the for the play right and there's no right or wrong as well how much Capital you
12:04
have how much resources you have how much risk you're willing to take and that's all those things will tie back to
12:10
answer just on that question right on how big is good enough right so let's say you have billions and billions
12:16
sitting there that you can afford to take huge risks on yeah go for big words right if you don't
12:22
have that you have a very very limited your bootstrapping every dollar is super precious then you have to be in a very
12:28
narrow and Target and then gradually explain when you expand let's say when we launch in Connect
12:34
we didn't launch in the whole island we didn't launch in an area
12:39
we didn't even launch at a mall we launched at the LG floor of Gurney Plaza
12:46
at that time maybe 70 80 of restaurants there at the LG floor on us
12:51
that was how we launched when you went into that floor you feel that it is launched
12:56
right because it is same limited resources if you do Statewide
13:02
if you do most wider area it would not be felt but when you concentrate you get
13:09
something so a lot of time is also that's a play of course you can't be forever there but that's the starting
13:15
point and there you go so I think it's picked a starting point that makes sense like even when we started Faith incline
13:22
Valley we started in talawi in bangsar we started in uptown
13:28
and we started this as rehabas focus on FMB so those were the three area that we
13:33
started with and then we go around across gradually at on right so so it plays a angle as
13:41
you build on so I think the thinking on it dream big start small and then go from there
13:47
um I can see it from a lot of the points that you mentioned right concentrate Focus picking uh I'm curious is there
13:55
like um that how to at knowing you I know uh you know you are a data cruncher
14:01
so how do data or research play a role behind all this uh finding the right
14:06
Focus if you can give us a um a specific example that would be great as well
14:12
yeah so let's look at the where to start right so I think the one is that so
14:17
let's say I'm picking where to start certainly a few things that data that we external datas right so I think take one
14:23
one is that if you go to like Google Maps and see where the businesses are so
14:30
you know there's a certain concentrations of area you can use some data in terms of how many shops are
14:35
there in a cross sometimes it's manual right you go and look at it open and directory of the most account right sometimes it's more automated but
14:42
basically I think one is a supply and a lot of times enough people have done work to determine the demand and
14:49
Supply play and the second I think is observations which area feels like there's a concentration no do you know
14:55
the market or you don't know the market right for some other second tier City we literally draw a cross and say this is
15:02
the center point how do we draw a line right a circle within there and focus within one PM radius half km radius from
15:09
that right so so I think a lot of it is you start from a area using summer data
15:15
and these are the at the Kickstart right and then as you build a pawn let's say
15:20
example now is fast forward you already operate in the whole city so how we
15:25
balancing is that we know the supply in every mall so the thing of it sometimes we do is that you list up all the malls
15:31
in town this restaurant this mall has 344 shops we are in 68 shops that's a 30
15:37
market share why is the market share across right it by percentage and absolute value and the second one is the
15:43
buy transactions right you do the same thing right actually you might not have the entire transaction on the mall but
15:49
you have the New York transactions right and then sometimes you do observation I
15:54
do walks the malls one way to get my 10 000 steps the second way is counting 100 people in the shops and take your
16:01
snapshots across right so I think then and then you balance it out right some mouse the strength is in Supply Gap is
16:08
in demand some models is the other way around Supply is a gap the money strong
16:14
right some malls is bad in both right and some is great in both I think some of this so I think as you use data is
16:22
you use some data start from your hypothesis standpoint observations and
16:27
then pull through right of course you might have lots of data to to look through like I'm a data person so I look at data every hour and
16:34
all those kind of things but you don't want to be same into that with so much
16:40
data and you know what to do you still want to start from a hypothesis I want to try to find out you want to find out
16:47
Supply the problem and demand you're going to find out why people don't
16:52
transact let's say example you have a bunch of user why people don't transect there are many factors that can go in
16:58
there right one no one land on your app no one land on your website to the land
17:05
but they bounce quickly if you're app wise do they uninstall
17:11
that has installed uninstallation rate email wise do they unsubscribe if you do push notification do they open
17:19
or don't open or do they block your push in app the same thing right so then for
17:25
each of that if you do emails then if you open do they click after they click to the page around the
17:32
state do they bounce do they try to do transactions but the transaction fails because the OTP doesn't come up because
17:40
the ewallet ran out money or because the authorizing just the Google true
17:46
or they don't even attack all right so if you look at it they're just a mere
17:52
point of transaction doesn't happen just now in the last two three minutes we maybe talk about about 10 different
17:59
things that could have been a problem right then of each other you might need to say okay you might have suspect that
18:05
this tree is definitely not the reason this fall maybe we need to dive deeper then you go with some data to say okay
18:12
this makes sense don't make sense what is the market expectation and again now
18:18
with all this generative AI it is good at answer right what is the conversion
18:23
rate of this daily no long right and I think that today that sort of connect right the and today of course yes there
18:31
are sometimes the data doesn't work perfectly I mean that's truth but I think that a lot of it is how do you
18:37
leverage on it and you will never be perfectly full on with data but you
18:42
want to have enough to make decision and a lot of decisions you don't need perfect position
18:49
you need good enough judgment to say that this is worth investing into it or
18:54
this should be stopped immediately right that's the good enough for you to
19:01
know that why is where should we prioritize or why should you deep practice so I think most of decisions
19:06
are like that right so you get enough to go in and say okay this makes sense let's do and and move on right so you
19:14
don't need to be like oh I need to be this to be 7.33456 that level of accuracy that's
19:21
useless for this right maybe in research project project and University may make sense right but may not be for it
19:28
oh thank you you have actually uh you have actually touched upon a couple of things that I was going to ask next but
19:35
you really touch upon like um things that people should be aware when you're actually using that are not going to Rabbit Hole but at the same
19:41
time we need to form clear hypothesis to test um now I want to switch a little bit to
19:46
retention so um well Faith being uh you know
19:51
helping Merchants to get get cash back uh so I'm very curious what are the some
19:56
of the most effective marketing strategy that you have used in faith that help with retention
20:01
yeah so I think for us is to help Merchant to retain and hence if the merchant to retain consumer would do it
20:08
right so let's say for us every fifth paid transaction trigger a cashback
20:13
the only way to use cashback is you need to be retained The Comeback and hence you get the value of cashback or else
20:19
that cashback when disserted right and there's a Time bound so it's a period of time right so let's say example
20:26
for Denver then dentists that we work with they want you to go back to do dentists every six months it's very hard
20:32
for them to do it but let's say they put a 10 cashback now you do go to the dentist you pay 200 Ringgit you got a 10
20:38
20 ringgit it expires at the end of six months
20:44
so in a way it push you to do that dentist visits again within three months
20:50
six months right all the same thing medical checkup or maybe the car workshop some of the card workshops are
20:56
working with us right for you to service your car sometimes let's drag one more man two more months
21:02
customizing is 800 Ringgit five percent cash was 40 ringgit service your car on
21:07
time you get 40 Ringgit back when Auto deducted for the next car service or you
21:12
wait one more month and you lost the 40 Ringgit that drives people to go so I think a lot of it is the objective
21:18
driven and people do it subconsciously rather than saying that okay I need to
21:24
be blend through right so it's a reminder some people don't care right oh 40 over
21:30
Ringgit uh servicing car I don't care but some people a lot of people care most people care right so I think it's
21:36
into into driving that habit as well right so let's say like people with morning Chelsea every morning you go
21:42
back coffee there are three four coffee place if this place keep on giving you the cashback you're like okay this is my
21:48
habit right I go and go back and do it so or some of them they may be doing cash back and then they got let's say
21:54
you know like something in malls you have those people at the Concourse already do events then you transact you
21:59
get the cashback by the cashback you have to go back to the other store upstairs in the same mall right so that
22:05
drives you back to the store right or sometimes electronic shops they do cash back you buy the first thing you buy the
22:11
TVs let's say you buy the TV 2000 Ringgit three percent cashback you got 60 Ringgit then you'll go find something
22:17
else to buy for 60 Ringgit right like if you don't find something now you buy 200 ring stuff right whatever so they don't
22:23
really care okay what can I buy you buy two batteries or whatever so people go
22:29
through and I have seen even very rich people do that there was
22:34
one dance free that was managing billions of Ringgits or sharing on how he buy one thing and get a cash back by
22:40
the second thing and they're using cashier by the third thing and this person managed billions right and this
22:46
person still bothered to do that right and it became a fun Factor right I know enough listed companies here in Malaysia
22:52
that actually do that when they meet me they're like see I do this I do that right so it's actually quite interesting
22:58
right sometimes you look at how what people feels that the value right let's
23:05
say Penang Penang a lot of opening next people are in a negative way you see
23:10
themselves in a good way it's very fast conscious right so people really wants
23:16
to make sure that every dollars is captured and used right so for them is
23:21
that if I can get this value I get this value right so let's say stock value the same
23:27
thing right so I think we're talking about retention and not just retention but it's upselling at the same time or retention
23:33
so let's say you good this coffee place decently enough this coffee each time you pay about 10 Ringgit what we do is
23:40
we actually work with a shop to to let you top up maybe 40 Ringgit I pay 40 for
23:46
50 Ringgit top up to be used only in this Cafe so now you have actually paid 40 Ringgit
23:53
for your next few coffee there if you don't go back in the next six
23:58
months that 40 Ringgit will disappear you have already prepaid right today in
24:05
the without a tool Starbucks people would do it but most other brands people won't do it but now you enable the
24:11
people to do it and say okay let me do it right let me be upfront and they don't even remember they just need to
24:17
they can easily check and they just when they pay you just Auto do that they don't even remember say oh do I still have that cashback do I still remember
24:24
that right don't have to you just use it right and then you just Auto did that so I think it's that sort of built a habit
24:30
so I think they ask you go on retention and then it's understanding the consumer
24:37
mindset how do you be able to what kind of behavior you want to drive
24:42
back right some may be daily Behavior some maybe weekly some may be monthly
24:48
some six monthly or let's say that this you you don't want a a patient every two
24:54
months come and see your dentist as well right I mean something quite wrong with you right so you just drive the right
24:59
frequency so a lot of it is use it in a right way anyway I see even
25:05
reminding on retention right different people have different preference so let's say it's a push notification
25:12
for some people that use their app middle online pushing a notification to that at 12 30 a.m is perfectly great for
25:19
a lot of people that's annoyed right for let's say emails all our emails are
25:25
actually automatically generated and it actually learns Behavior the more you open the
25:32
more email you get so it actually learned the behavior with AIS and building tool right and we've
25:38
been doing it for the last many years without really calling it AI right let's say for example every other Merchants they actually get the reports monthly
25:45
reports of all their transactions what time what day people comes Hardware has gone up how's the different Outlets
25:51
how's the reviews at different outlets and everything all these reports for all matches 30 40
25:56
000 of them are all generated AI not done by human beings it's Auto created
26:02
and autos published for them right for them for them to review so it's actually quite
26:07
interesting right if you look at this is today a lot of things is actually
26:14
already in that work it's just that it was not branded as AI back then right to
26:19
to think of it it would back then it just I feel like automated reporting right yeah but if you think on it the
26:25
slides are all written not by human already and this world is going to come in right such a thing on it now today
26:31
when you think of doing retention how do you be able to drive it and I think that
26:36
as we talk about all this technology there's still a huge leap to pull through the rest of the country or the
26:43
rest of the world as well right there's yes in the major areas a lot of these are default people are on
26:51
it but there's still a lot of countries where people are still using cash there's still a lot of parts of
26:56
communities that people still don't believe or doing that to try so I think
27:02
how do we move that and builds the process interesting uh what you inspire me to
27:09
think about it as well for example certain times cashback or any other promotion tool rate everyone seems to
27:16
know yeah I know about the tool but actually to think deeper into as a consumer we are so easily uh we just see
27:24
the value and see the period right but what you inspire me is that actually there's a lot of thinking behind what
27:29
value to put that makes sense so that people go through that funnel to keep on using the cashback and also the period
27:34
that makes sense for the nature of the product and just like you mentioned
27:41
um but in order to do that we need to understand the consumer mindset is there like any techniques that you can share
27:47
with us on uh techniques you use to understand consumer mindset or your team
27:52
use um so I think that they understand consume myself I think one is that I
28:00
think definitely did that right which area people repeat how frequently why people like how often they repeat they
28:06
don't repeat really spend more don't spend more buy demographics as well right because let's say even they do
28:12
like retails right it's for sometimes people that pay may not be people that are using it
28:19
right so so even like maybe one example right is like even for one of the women
28:26
lingerie shops most of the payers actually mail
28:31
yes right so here's quite interesting right it and it's actually by a certain
28:37
segments and whatnot right so by age group and they're like that's how that segment connect through
28:43
as well right so so I think is using data gives you a sense so let's say example cashback
28:49
if your shops is already full at lunch time always lunchtime pack no place to
28:55
sit don't give cash back a lifestyle a lot of these shops the same shop at 1
29:02
30 1 pm you have no seats at 2 30 PM the shop is 90 empty
29:08
why do you do some cashback at 2 30 to bring some of the cost-conscious crop
29:15
and those have a little flexi time that we will then eat their lunch later or
29:21
earlier let's say you say like your big crowd is 12 to 2. to drive me you give these are the more
29:28
cashback after octave testing optimize it 11 to 2 11 to 12 and 2 to 3. then you
29:35
basically now inside have a two hour full pack lunch card now you have four hours of backline shop with the first
29:41
hour and last hour has a bit more the rewards right the same thing right
29:48
as flip the other way some places their office area with cancer is MP
29:53
right the area has not much people or flip the other way shopping malls that is crowded on weekends every day is
29:58
empty how do you drive that or even Ramada we all know in the industry that week
30:05
two week three or Rama dance is the primary people go out in Buffet the
30:10
first three four days and the last three four days usually people doing it Buffet
30:16
most of the time people spend with families so by knowing insights to data you know
30:22
how to price it how do you move to certain segments to drive it right and sometimes also is demographics like
30:28
let's say Aquarius or the KL Towers foreign tourism no question they don't
30:34
need any motivation but for them to get it sustained they might want local tourists so then how do
30:40
you target that so a lot of it is also segmentized and understanding
30:46
the numbers right so let's say example for certain hotels their buffet
30:52
breakfast like it or not they are ready to serve but today because at a certain
30:57
price rich people won't go is there a price range that you can do to drive more people to go in because after all
31:04
the food is that there's a lot of sun costs right if you look at Beauty well that's the same thing there's a lot of sun costs things has already opened how
31:11
do you drive it drinks as almost expiring food that's almost expiry how do you do it like I
31:16
think traditionally people have been doing that right and at what time if you look at it think of data in the airline
31:24
industry or hotel industry it has been there for quite some time you know that every time we went to sit on a plane the
31:30
person left of you right of you paid maybe more than you or less than you if you go to hotel the person left for you
31:37
of you maybe more or less than you it's not the same price
31:42
a crossbar if you do right handling your book across three different people bouquet at the
31:48
same time you might have different price based on certain Behavior right let's say one of the common marketing things
31:54
that people know many platform do it if you use the iPhone you are quite Rich you can shoot more
32:00
that's a typical right I think that a lot of e-commerce does that of course there's a level one basic fundamentals
32:06
but it builds right I think that people go through today if you were looking at the airline price three types open close
32:13
check close the best logic is increase the price slightly you get Penny you buy straight
32:19
away right so there's a lot of those Logics that has been done today to using data
32:25
to maximize optimize and plow into the right right player right yeah
32:32
and so we we talk a lot about um just now we talk about uh growing user base
32:39
without retentions what are the key metrics you use to define success in marketing
32:45
from your perspective yeah so I think for me is that a lot of time is that there is a input and maybe
32:52
that will put it as a output right so I think if you think on it what's the output output maybe it's like
32:58
installations or what we call monthly active customers or new customers paying
33:03
people or maybe active users so those are our brand new as output right but then the input is at what point each of
33:11
the funnels you build through right and I will say that for some of that you pull the data track it and let it be you
33:17
don't look at it maybe every single day at some of it you go super deep and in the end as well as a problem where you
33:24
dip that and where it's like you scan through make sure nothing breaks right so I think that is there's a lot of Arts
33:31
and Science balancing between the two right in terms of and because every business is very different as well so I
33:37
won't say it's a one size fit all and say every business do have all these things it doesn't work that way right so
33:44
let's say example from web and app for us people that will buy a voucher is
33:52
actually more cost effective to sell them on a web but after they set Bay on the web we will tell them the only way
33:59
to redeem is download the app the cost to get this person to download the app is actually free now because
34:05
people has paid for the voucher the only way to do is download the app to music so there's no more costs to get it
34:11
right because they that's the only way to redeem it right so it is through some
34:17
play right and that you have to sort of like understanding the nuances on it
34:24
right so let's say think of even data back then this was quite a few years ago
34:29
where in JB right we will look at it like buy some of the places the
34:35
singaporeans don't need that doesn't use their transactions and after all we
34:41
found the biggest problem they had is the place didn't offer Wi-Fi they don't use because they have no internet
34:48
and that was a problem right and that can be an easiest off if we know it so a lot of time is that why certain things
34:55
that doesn't happen or maybe certain area now is better back then certain LG floor basement one the
35:02
internet doesn't work there so people can't pick I think this problem in this last two three four years I think is mostly soft
35:08
if you look at earlier years then there's a lot of this problem right and I think things will evolve as we go
35:13
along as well all right let's say back then where we were doing the kfit business right the biggest acquisition segment
35:22
was people that changed their relationship status on Facebook those days people still changed their status
35:28
you can go in a relationship in relationship to engage I mean I can't
35:34
remember those days yeah and that was our target audience the moment you change all the ads go
35:40
there right single to in a relationship so now I say you talk to them and say okay now you're in a relationship so go
35:46
and exercise together have fun together if you break up then you say okay go out and have five meet new people
35:53
so the messaging can then fight to that so in the end we look at marketing right it's are you talking to the people
36:01
we are all consumer as well right we are bombarded by unlimited marketing out
36:06
there so it happens if you even as a marketer right ask yourself
36:12
why you respond to certain things why you don't respond to most of the things for those that you respond yourself why
36:20
you respond and let them observe if you put a part of sales material in front of shops BDS stand there or around there
36:28
and see how people react to those right if you let's say you look at
36:33
people's screen moving mouse screens or using their fingers in their phone like
36:38
where do they look at it where do they spend time where do they do spend time where they scroll through very different
36:44
so I think a lot of nuances in that right in terms of that so there'll be uh
36:50
the objective part and the subjective part right and then you are with I2 both what is your view how would generative
36:56
AI uh and the trend that we are seeing how AI going into the mass Market change marketing
37:03
yeah so I think that the today I think what it would change certain things and
37:08
it would not change certain things you can start from not changing right I think in the end as you do marketing you
37:13
still need to talk to the audience you still need to capture the buy-in from the audience right so the the audience
37:21
whether you want to do Drive acquisition people to download the app paper to sign up register people to pay for something
37:27
so that's acquisition right or retention people continue to come back so I think that AI or datas can drive that process
37:35
a bit but what doesn't change is you still need to win over the customer the consumer right remember the process
37:41
taxes a bit easier but that consumers still make that
37:47
choice in one way or another right so whether it's one of choice then repeated or is a conscious Choice along the way
37:53
but there's some choices to be made at a human being level so I think that's still not changed but I think what all
38:00
this AI has evolved and transformed is that it enables us to understand people
38:06
right so let's say today you can basically train up all this generative AI right by basically saying that okay I
38:13
have this demographics these people are this behavior these are the they reply with us this or whatnot and how do we do
38:20
it right if I want to have this rough messaging what are the few drafts that you can do what are the few images that
38:26
we can be created within seconds right it's like hours or days or weeks right so I think that it cut shot a lot of it
38:32
makes us enable us to test but it does not take away that it still need to win
38:38
over the heart of consumer so I think that's sort of where it is and I think that today in terms of we look at from
38:45
engineering learning how to write prompt it becomes super crucial right the same
38:50
topic same questions given to same five people as in slightly differently will
38:56
get very different answer and I think today that's the evolving right how do you be able to do it and there will be
39:03
things that will get disrupted there will be things that will be enhanced so I think as everyone looking
39:08
into this is how do you be able to write this and then go beyond
39:15
gotcha and um so that's my next question if I were to ask you like um as a
39:23
marketer uh what are the one to three things that you believe at the marketer today should write on this wave in order
39:30
to actually get a hit on it instead of the competitors actually getting ahead of it
39:35
hmm good question I live as a marketer I think one is that be very familiar with
39:41
all the new tools the your competitor is going to have these tools the problem is going to use these things whether you
39:47
like it or not so I think it's be familiar try it learn it and really
39:52
learn and learn relearn and to really optimize it right exchange notes don't be scared of it try it and find out what
40:00
would work right I think in the end knowing your end objective leveraging it right let's say you have a demographics
40:05
or segment or you have objection handling all those with this stuff can
40:11
be created right it can be reply built on and you train it up right so I think
40:16
that you basically like know of someone that was doing the SEO right and they
40:22
were using this charge GPT to train up so that they can learn all the things newer things and then that got enhanced
40:29
into their codes right so a lot of these things can be leveraged right so let's
40:34
say example right now if I think of okay I want to Target this segment is it
40:41
relevance and when or not how big is the segment what should I try to convince a
40:46
skeptic of that segment right so all this you now have a easy tool within
40:52
seconds or minutes be able to create and I think that there are more and more newer software as well right newer tools
41:00
that's built upon all these things as well right let's say today you can create slides within seconds you can do
41:05
many many things right across board right today even with video many of the
41:11
videos are automatically generated right and you basically feels like similar
41:17
right so I think that that's will come in so I think that if you think on it one is embrace it learn it adapt to it
41:23
right and build on and I think the second one is that the
41:29
fundamentals are still key no matter what the tools and everything the fundamentals are still there you
41:36
can't get away without fundamentals it's just that now with this the the way to
41:42
approach a fundamentals may be slightly different right so think of a good old days
41:47
right back then when the overall days are bearing Generations they only had Billboards TV and radio
41:54
hmm in the last 10 20 years we have a slurry of online world that started
42:01
created and in between there's maybe a bit of metaverse and why not start coming in into the picture but if you
42:07
think on it it's just a medium that shifted right in every if you're old
42:12
enough in a good oldest chatting you start from IRC then icq AOL then Ms and
42:18
Yahoo messenger then you go on Facebook WhatsApp Instagram and all this
42:23
thing right so and then Tick Tock will and now laminate and all this thing right so the world shift with the tools
42:30
and everything but the fundamentals doesn't shift right people still need to communicate the
42:35
same thing in marketing you still need to convince people to say people they still think of it there are multiple
42:41
theories of Market things right but if you think on it is again it's awareness acceptance and then after that people go
42:48
and activations right so I think in some form of debt you still need to go through that there's people do people
42:54
aware of your things after they aware do they know what you're doing if they know what you're doing do they think that
43:00
that's relevant to them is it useful to them and if it's passed through this space do they think that they should
43:06
take the efforts to go in to get this and are they willing to pay for it now
43:11
if you think on it is roughly this right irrespective of the medium it's just how you do it maybe how you do
43:18
it in each of the steps maybe slightly different but the fundamental doesn't change right do you answering some of those
43:25
questions and and then if you go deeper on retention the same thing right people are using what whatever they provide in
43:32
whichever world all right and after they use it do they think they want to use again do they feel good enough that they
43:39
would repeat it do they want to continue paying for it would they want to get on a subscription where they paid every
43:45
month continuously or would they want to pay at home or maybe no they're not going to do it anymore
43:51
would they go out and tell refer to others and this is telling others also their possible things right one is
43:57
saying that okay I just you see I'm not gonna tell anyone I'm just okay the other one is when you go and tell others
44:03
there are a few ways one is that if you ask them to tell and they will tell whether positive or negative or the
44:10
other one is it don't even tell and they will go and tell people everywhere and it'll go all up and go do it right so I
44:16
think in the end is that that psychological right why people do this why so you will think on it there are
44:23
many of the things that people do it that it may not make sense logically but
44:29
people do it willingly so how do you get to that mode that people will then refer
44:35
your things right go out there and tell people that yeah you should do this and encourage people even though you don't
44:40
incentivize that right and of course there's also the forbidden fruit right where people when people don't do it
44:46
people do it right so that is also that bragging rights and everything right and
44:51
even now it's across Generations right so I think as you deal with your consumers or the target audience there's
44:58
also different segment there's a segment that maybe many of you are familiar the digital native the people that grew up
45:05
with technology but as you go down this path there are also many people that
45:12
still feels a bit scared to use many things on digital world right so how do
45:17
you win over that is that your segment or not your segment if that's a segment how do you convey to them how do you
45:23
give the confidence that they won't screw it up they think of your parents grandparents uncles and
45:30
everything right how do you make that confidence to do online banking how do you make them
45:35
confident to put in their credit card details how do you make sure that they don't get scammed after that
45:42
right because the scammers are getting smarter as well right so oh yes they also have chat gbt yes you have
45:48
everything so whatever you have they have it how do I make sure that they so
45:53
it's a balancing as well right how do you pull someone in and yet give Assurance right so if you think I need
45:59
that it's multiple dimensional there actually I really like your examples to illustrate like how you pick a certain
46:06
scenario and go narrow enough in order to find the talking point by using data
46:11
um so now we actually uh going to wrap up we're going into lightning round I have three quick questions for you uh so
46:19
first question is what advice would you give to someone um who is interested in pursuing a
46:25
career in marketing yeah so I think that you care about if you think about marketing right is that
46:31
you care about getting people to grab on something or get care about people to continue using something or care about
46:38
people to tell others about something or care about people to spend more on something I think the fundamentals of
46:44
those few things right so you can do you care deeply about this or not the methods and style will change today
46:51
maybe it's this medium five years later it will be different mediums 10 years later will be different there'll be
46:57
different segments do you care about different segments all these details right and it's balancing between data
47:03
creativity and testing is it you need all free at different
47:09
blend right full data alone no observation doesn't work all observations have no data like we can
47:16
work as well and if you you have all this data everything but you're not creatively talking to people it doesn't
47:21
work empathy people care about it where people know that you care about them so I think that's maybe that right so I
47:28
think that would be sort of how I look at yeah nice uh question number two what is the
47:34
one marketing book or resources that you would recommend um so the I think good question right so
47:42
I think for me these days I think instead of reading books I think is a lot of the Articles and everything but I
47:49
think that now I would actually recommend but BRD but dot google.com anything that you have in mind and
47:56
thoughts let's go and talk about and I spent quite a lot of time talking about these days asking that but to do
48:01
everything for me right and when the company announced their quarterly earnings and lies for me when the
48:06
exchange rate goes up goes now that's about what happened U.S debt ceiling but
48:12
just a submarine for me every day and tell me what happens why not right why this person say so why this person do
48:17
that so I'm talking about every day right so I think that they and if you think of any marketing things you can go
48:24
on that right and pick it up through the I mean that's just one but I think is go
48:29
out there and pick the medium that you learn the best it could be video it
48:36
could be audio it could be reading it could be through talking it could be through short form long form
48:43
and all different ways to be through trial error it could be
48:48
true instruction formal formal instruction pick the way that you learn best and go
48:54
on it um so for our listeners who want to follow and connect with you what's the
49:00
best way to do so yeah so I think feel free to ping me on LinkedIn I think that's uh best of
49:06
course don't sell meetings I know that I'm running a marketing data related
49:12
sessions but I do get a lot of spam message and people try to sell so don't sell me give yourself try to sell to me
49:18
I'm not going to responds on it so I think that's maybe one right and I think that they and I think even if you try to
49:25
sell something to anyone you like be contextual right and find a way to
49:31
relate because or else it's just pep right so I think that the the so I think
49:37
that's maybe the best way to reach up and of course if you are in KL or
49:42
whatnot I think that a lot of events and why not sometimes I'm there so feel free to say hi and why not yeah
49:48
yes uh and and we'll use the lessons that you tell you know using data to understand you to talk to you instead of
49:55
just selling to you uh thank you so much for being here chin ciao thank you so
50:01
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50:07
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