In this episode, we speak to Jia Nina (BigPay Country Marketing Head) about her experience leading a successful e-wallet campaign targeting Gen Z consumers. We discuss the importance of speaking the language of your audience, incorporating lifestyle brands and using data to drive your marketing strategy.

About our guest:

Jia Nina is the Country Marketing Head of BigPay, marketing to over 1.5million users across Southeast Asia as BigPay remains as one of the fastest growing neobank in ASEAN.

At BigPay, she has led high impact projects that include presenting BigPay to the Malaysian Prime Minister, partnering with Ministry of Finance, Malaysia to digitally onboard over 2million youths, championing financial inclusion for Malaysian B40 income groups in partnership with MDEC, while building strategic partnerships with mega brands such as airasia, Shopee, and, ZALORA. 

Jia holds a Bachelor of Laws (Hons) degree from Northumbria University, Newcastle, UK.

In today’s episode, we discuss :

• Nina’s background - How Nina started from legal and pivoted into marketing
• How storytelling the right way helps BigPay to grow their customer base
• Using data to get successful buy-ins on marketing strategy in BigPay
• How BigPay use data to get internal stakeholders buy-ins successfully
• How BigPay become crowd’s favourite in ePemula campaign while being the smallest team
• How BigPay use data to understand their target audience
• How BigPay use data to plan their go-to-market strategy
• How BigPay uses data for their partnership strategy & put together most competitive bundled offer
• Overcoming the challenge of looking for a needle in a haystack when analysing data
• Importance of being very clear of your campaign objectives when choosing data to look at
• Why NPS is not outdated
• How BigPay use data when planning go-to-market in Singapore
• How BigPay decided to prioritize cryptocurrency product in Singapore based on consumer data
• Success derived from external and internal stakeholders alignment
• How to get your team aligned to your vision and strategy
• Lighting round - 5 important skills marketers should have
• Lighting round - 4 metrics BigPay monitor in marketing
• Lighting round - Recommended book for beginner and seasoned marketers

Where to find Jia Nina:

LinkedIn

Where to find Julie:

LinkedIn

References:

• BigPay: https://bigpayme.com/
• ePemula (BigPay): https://bigpayme.com/blog/how-to-apply-for-epemula/
• ePemula (Ministry of Finance, Malaysia): https://www.mof.gov.my/portal/en/news/press-citations/e-pemula-will-help-drive-cultivation-of-cashless-transactions-in-malaysia-tengku-zafrul
• ATL, BTL: https://tbs-marketing.com/difference-between-atl-btl-and-ttl-advertising/
• AirAsia: https://www.airasia.com/en/gb
• Zalora: https://www.zalora.com/
• Shopee: https://shopee.com.my/
• Shopback: https://www.shopback.sg 
• 22 immutable laws of marketing: https://www.amazon.com/22-Immutable-Laws-Marketing-Violate/dp/0887306667
• Made in the future book: https://www.amazon.com/Made-Future-Story-Marketing-Content/dp/0670096245

Transcript:

00:58.71

Julie

This podcast is brought to you by Vase I'm Julie you're hosts in this podcast and in every single episode. We talk to industry leaders, marketers and growth experts in Asia about how to use data to enhance the ROI in your marketing activities. So we're bringing you real case studies about how this leads. implement data driven marketing while giving you a sneak peak on the background on how they build their career to  today. So today joining me is Jia Nina country marketing head of bigpay nina has extensive experience in digital marketing, customer acquisition and retention at bigpay. She has led high impact projects that include working with the Malaysian government to increase financial inclusion for low-in income groups. She have also built strategy partnerships with mega brands such as air asia shell Zalora she is very passionate about creating marketing strategies that drive growth and increased customer engagement. Thank you for joining us today. Welcome Nina.

01:58.36

Jia nina 

Hi Julie first of all, thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here to be having this conversation today. I'm very excited.

02:06.99

Julie

Nina when I look at your LinkedIn right? 1 thing definitely stood out to me. You graduated with a legal degree. But in all your career choices. You seem to know marketing is the exact place you want to be. Now. It's not frequent to see a switch but such a consistent switch so I would love that if you can tell us you know, take us back to your career starting point and share with us. How do you get to where you are today?

02:35.44

Jia nina 

I Knew this question was going to come up because this is something that I get asked very frequently in person you know at events and whatnot. But um, yeah, you know I think honestly I always knew I was going to be a lawyer I never knew I was going to be a marketer. And that's my most honest answer that I'll give you um you know when you were a kid you know everyone has to fill in your report cards and there's this tree options of your your your career or what you wanted to do and lawyer was always in the mix right? growing up in an Asian household it meant lawyer engineer doctor.

03:12.68

Jia nina 

Um, that was not imposed on me just to clarify. It was something that I knew I wanted to and I just had this really deep strong conviction and and leaning into it a career in legal and it was because I couldn't stop talking. Um as a kid I was very talkative as well. My parents were always like you know you probably should be the next Ali Mc wheelal or you know. Consider a career in you know Boston public or whatnot and um, you know I think for me, it was just so it's it's also quite bizarre. Um, because I never saw myself in a marketing career to to be honest and so what had actually sparked that or or kind of propel me into that trajectory. Ah, essentially is I think curiosity I have always been a curious child to begin with I always want to know what's on the other side of the coin I always challenge precepts and and concepts for example, like a question is people would I'll say like oh.

04:06.49

Jia nina 

It's tight. You know the age the appropriate age to go to primary schools is at the age of 7 and I would say like where where does that come from. You know why? not the h why not early or why not later right? who validates and who comes with those things and I think for me is also being at the forefront liking to experiment a lot. Um, and I think those are naturally essentially Dna of marketers right? experimenting curiosity having the room to sort of play around a little bit more and I think my interests in tech-based companies land and in these kind of industries where it changes a lot I think. The interest was always there and as I grew up and grew into my own element I had opportunities that propelled me and which eventually landed me there so it was taking a risk essentially having a strong conviction and knowing your personality type. You can take multiple personality tests by the way to to kind of figure these things out. Um, and having the unique experiences to experiment to to test and to you know, be in the front line of game changing industries that all spelt marketing for me. Um, and so when I went into the the field I fell in love with the process and I I stayed there.

05:21.50

Julie

Nice, Ah awesome I Definitely see that in order to be a successful marketer you know and the willingness to experiment and the long lasting curiosity is so important because it keeps changing.

05:37.70

Jia nina 

It does it really does and I think just to elaborate a little bit more um, maybe just to give you a vantage point in terms of how I started exactly from legal and then pivoted into marketing per se I started out on illegal and legal is a very very niche a very specific skill set. Um, and 90% of my batchmates actually have left the industry. They're about 10% of them actually practicing and when we have these little reunions. Um, I think the common connotation that I hear from my ex-classmates are that you know you're one of the lucky ones that had such a strong conviction and you. That you were going to pivot and the fact that an outsider standpoint looking at you and your trajectory is that it seems like you make a decision that paid off, you know how did you know you wanted to venture out and you know legal into marketing is a huge switch and I had no you know theoretical education in in marketing and whatsnot whatnot. It was a learn on the job kind of situation and it was a paid education I would call it so I think for me how it started is literally someone took a chance on me and gave me an opportunity in a corporate communications role first and I said yes. Without hesitating because to me was what was the worst that could happen right? If this didn't pan out in 1 to 2 years I could always go back to legal right? I could just pay the nominal fee and you know still be a barrister and like you know, go back to practice and yeah, there's always going to be it. But.

07:03.47

Jia nina 

The opportunity to venture out and somebody seeing the potential or you know even you know prompting and nudging me in that direction was very rare and was a very good opportunity which I'm glad I said yes to and that opened the doors from experimenting you know, learning everything and marketing pr crisis communications. Atl Btl Efforts Digital Marketing social media. Everything under your marketing umbrella I've learned and I've done it. Um and and I think that was sort of the best decision and and learnings that came with and so that gave me an opportunity to sort of you know propel into. Tech companies. So when I learned all these skills in my first role in corporate communications that was a publication arm that then propelled me into tech companies like video games and then eventually now in fintech. Um, so in in video games right? I think the core of being a marketer and in startup environments is. You're always put in a David and goliath.

08:02.16

Jia nina 

And for the better people who don't know this story David is the smaller player. He doesn't have much you know he doesn't have an armor. He can't even wear it. It's it's heavy and goliath is like this giant that comes in you know with strength and armor and he's equipped and he looks like he's going to win it in in 2 seconds and so when you are a marketer. Go into industries that are in the front line of changing and you know you're competing for attention. You're competing for skin in the game yogi brand share and you know how do you tell a business a business storytelling and and get so much skin in the market and so much brand share value and whatnot.

08:39.87

Jia nina 

You have to be be like David and so that allowed me the David skill sets of being agile speed to market and being very strategic in shots and that is essentially the core and essence of being a marketer and those are things that I learned um, being in a fintech company being in a games company and. Um, you know, essentially it grew and exponentially you know it's all the learning curve that has come to this date and and then I landed a role in big pay so with big pay. It didn't look one to one by the way when I I didn't like go in there and get my ideal dream job. You know I got everything. Sometimes opportunity comes to you in disguise and they are not 1 to one one hundred percent but you've got to say yes and take that leap of faith and go write it out right? So I started as a social media campaigns manager so I did all of the things in a relearning like crisis communication.

09:33.96

Jia nina 

How do we put a product announcement out? How do we build a go-to marketing plan in fintech especially when there's regulation by pegnagara central bank so it's it's it's some of the parameters in protocol. Um, and I for ah for me I think to other marketers out there I wasn't a social media expert per se. But I had the skill set and framework that I've learned from previous jobs and previous roles and to date I think one of my biggest achievements that I'm still very proud of is that we grew our social channels by 200% organically what that tells you in a marketing peripheral you know and and grand scheme of things is that customers were engaging with us. And we found a winning formula to talk to our customers and for me from that role I then identified other opportunities whether it was in partnerships and I you know I put proud of myself and and put myself to do the things that was unglamorous and nobody wanted to do and I I built a lot of things from scratch. And so when you pair up all of these experiences from social media and campaigns from a partnership standpoint you learn the art of managing internal external so internal would be your cross-pollination whether it's working with your wrist team your compliance team your operations in Mark Product you know and externally it's managing your vendors your partners your stakeholders and you bring it all together. That's landed me in the exact role that I sit today because I literally have a birds eye view and so much experience you know together? Um, and you you sort of like you look at the business and you're like okay so now here's where I sit.

11:07.91

Jia nina 

This is where the business is going to and this is what the business needs and this is how I make a decision and this is how we propel and we continue to grow in the market.

11:14.55

Julie

This is definitely inspiring, especially for a marketers who actually sometimes starts like at the place that we don't know how to do but it also shows that when you're willing to learn and really put in all the effort you will actually grow to a place that they want to be. And talking about BigPay I actually wanted to focus on your rule there. So you ta on so many different marketing stuff just now and I think in BigPay Alone. You actually touch on a lot of different elements. So What are some of the most effective marketing strategies that you have used.

11:47.25

Jia nina 

So marketing strategies in relation to growth or campaigns or.

11:55.17

Julie

Okay let's start with growth.

12:01.59

Jia nina 

Okay, so I think you know marketing strategies. It really really looks at what your ah objective is right? So if this is for example. Um, a mission for more awareness campaigns right? You're looking at an acquisition play, brand awareness and acquisition. Um, you would be looking at an atl kind of effort and Atl Efforts obviously would look at you look at your business metrics and your goals. And you look at your campaigns and and your strategies at hand and then obviously you also look at research and data and then you build something you build you build a go- to market plan and it's also very important because for atl kinds of strategies. They are generally a broader and larger net. But you're casting a wider net you're not doing very very niche targeted conversions. You're doing much more of like hey look at me or look at us we are here in the market and we've got a great product that we think could be good at enough added value to you or who could or could benefit you. Right? So these are usps and and these are stuff and I think the most important part is to not do it like a salesman but it's to do it with a very very tinge of I think the added touch magic touch of storytelling because.

13:18.81

Jia nina 

As a marketer Essentially your the key secret source is to be able to tell stories and relate to your customers in a very emotional sense because believe it or not especially for us. You know as a fintech player people say that money is a very logical thing Personally I disagree I think it's actually very very emotional. So knowing how to relate.

13:38.63

Jia nina 

Tell a story that makes your audience go Ah yeah, shit like you know that's that's something that I really relate to and that really that really hit the spot right? because that's that's literally what I'm going through or that's a product that I feel like could actually help solve and so when you marry all of this together. Knowing a very clear objective, having your data sets in point, building the right strategies and knowing what you want to hit the nail and having a very clear defined outcome is what I would say is a secret I mean a strategic success to marketing campaigns and efforts.

14:12.43

Julie

You mentioned storytelling as a very important tool. Ah, ultimately everything you know we buy things to emotional context but we rationalize it with our brain.

14:24.69

Julie

So there's obviously different people in the room you know making decisions about what storytelling is good. What resonates with people so is that like a framework you have awesome gut feeling or heuristic that you use to kind of decide. Okay, this storytelling angle is good.

14:37.36

Jia nina 

Okay, so I think this comes into what you're saying is you know how do you make a decision in your organization. You know in terms of if this approach is the right approach right? so essentially I think you need to you need to know where you sit. In your organization Very firstly right? and you need to identify who are your stakeholders right? So There are two there there elements here. They are stakeholders and they are.. There's also a mission driven that you want to drive so number one I Think. Sharing the metrics across sharing your vision and and doing the lobbying the buy-in process is very very important and as a marketer it means you need to have relationships across various departments. It does not mean you only. Um, markets certain things to your audience or you only have relationships within your own division. So It means you need to have an understanding in terms of you know the the division that you're going to drive the campaign you're going to drive. Okay, we're going to tell this story and we're going to go with this Positioning. You're going to have to justify and get the buyins from. Various product owners or tech owner or tech or developers and say like we feel that this is the right product mission right? This is the right product fit to go to the market and this is a mission that we're gonna drive therefore we're gonna say we're going to empower users with financial access and financial literacy. For example.

16:04.23

Jia nina 

And these guys are going to go? Yeah, Okay, but can you elaborate? Why are you saying that? and yeah, great. We've got a couple of suit of products that we we think that are good for this cohort. Can you justify why? you think that you know what we need to focus on then comes in data earlier that I mentioned right? and you tell them like hey we're looking at you know, just. You know the last quarter, There's just been an influx of a lot of people in Gig economy that needs financial access and and we think that this product can really really elevate how they receive salaries or how they receive payments and and and just the ease of access as they move around within the market that we're looking at and your exco will also be another. Um I think processes will need to buy into the vision as well because these are the strategic thinkers and they are the gatekeepers to make sure that every effort in the business is aligned with a business goal and metric and when you are able to lobby in from one your peers and then the X co. Sell them a vision and and and you know initiatives that are very tied to it and tell them I think with the Xco you need to basically show them unit economics and and pair in with you know the market that you're going to go into and looking at the outcome and then putting the narrative there. So These are the products we want to do this is the you know in terms of business. What we want to achieve and therefore this is a story that we're going to tell them. We're not going to sell insurance to people who already have insurance, we are going to tell economy folks hey you don't have to be isolated.

17:35.76

Jia nina 

You can have financial access. It doesn't have to be tough. It's tough to get a loan at banks. But that's why with us we will do we go onboard you you pass your KYC and if you qualify based on our secret metrics and sauce we will give you microloans if you are qualifying and deserving because. You know everyone deserves to have access to financial services and that's kind of the narrative that will go for it. So That's kind of the process in terms of how it would work.

18:03.89

Julie

Got it. Thank you for sharing. Is there a case study that you can also share with us? I grow I didn't campaign that can also describe some of the effective marketing strategies that you have used before. Yes.

18:18.51

Jia nina 

I definitely have one top of mind that I know I'm very excited to you know, walk you through and I think this was the the project with the ministry of Finance Malaysia. So This was a project that was called ePemula. And knowing very clearly um what we wanted to do to win in the market right? So you had to be selected as and as a player as an E-wallet by the ministry of Finance Malaysia to distribute to update you know cash distribution to up to 2million use which is the Gen Z market.

18:54.68

Jia nina 

And in the height of it. We were in an endemic state so we were still driving the digital payments and the cashless payments narrative with this was a very tall order because you're looking at a sizeable base of 2 million youths and how are you going to talk to all 2000000 youth and how are you going to convince. Million use that you are the choice. The top of my choice and so when we got this. It was a very tall order. But I think the the team just really got down to work very quickly. I think we were all wearing our David hats and we were like okay Goliath's coming and. We were ready. We were ready to take it on and I think that's what I love most. But it's this experience so we immediately knew the identifying the market first we identified the market and we were like okay so the sizeable base of 2 million youths and we know that gen z lives on the internet right. Where are they hanging out? They're on Tiktok they're on Instagram some of them. are business owners, some of them are very entrepreneuristic and some of them you know even like you know things like cryptocurrency and investing at an early on which is a very different generation from the millennials the boomers and the gen x right. And we sort of knew if we were going to onboard and sort of be the winning have a winning formula. We needed to speak in a language that they understand so first your tone of voice in terms of talking to a gen z has to be very relatable. That was the first thing top of mind that we decided we're going to do.

20:19.86

Jia nina 

We were not going to look like dinosaurs in a room convincing you know gen zs to come on board and use a product that was outdated. It was very lifestyle driven and it was very very fit in terms of the market. So that was one number 2 learning when we put the go to marketing strategy together. We knew that you know. We had to look through that data and we had to see like okay what was your behavior and your consumer spend like where were they hanging out and what were they spending on and what were they thrifting on and what are miss opportunities and what are things that we can offer them and so we very quickly found out that you know, um in data points and research. Gen Zs are unlikely to like millennials. millennials has this rush and tendency to need to buy a house. I need to buy a car whereas the gen zs are like yeah maybe I could rent for a bit you know so that I don't need the stress of you know purchasing a home first. I would love to travel a little bit more, maybe live. You know, being a digital nomad for six months experience and exploring the world, learn more about investing and then when I'm I'll come back to making such a huge commitment at the later point. So then we realized that okay lifestyle investments and. Having more financial strategies were things that were interesting to them and they were more likely to use Qr codes to scan the ease of excess payments was very important to them. They don't like to waste time, anything beyond a minute is slow right? So we knew okay, that was it.

21:48.99

Jia nina 

And the third thing is they are very very incorporated into lifestyle brands so fashion travel and leisure and shopping f and b were very very sentimental and very relatable touch points to the gen z market and knowing all of these we use all these data points. To assemble a whole list of merchants which was how we got air Asia we got Zalora we gotwa and and a lot of partners to come in to build just a bundled kind of offer which was the most competitive one in the market compared to the other 2 ah e wallet players.

22:22.69

Jia nina 

And what that told us is. We had a theory. We validated it with with data and we did our homework and we did our NPS you know we were asking questions. We were communicating with our audience and asking like what do you prefer? what brands would you like to see you know is this is this lucrative? Um, you know offer for you. And with all of these conversational two-way conversations. We were able to win so many people over and that translates it into an acquisition play in terms of how many people signed up to Bigpay and actually got you know the wallet during that campaign  timeline and we were also notably you know. The crowd. The choice is favorite because we got organic brand of from you know whether it is from social media whether it is from advocacy on forums you could just see it flying around and I think organic ah PR as well was a very very good track metrics that we saw. And we didn't pay for those things and we were getting a lot of brand love we were getting a lot of customers advocacies naturally and very organic skill and I think for me, you know, just looking at this and the numbers that that translated after that and in terms of how it continued into customers continuously adopting the product was for me. A success and this was a very very good example at a very very high impact campaign for us.

23:43.10

Julie

Wow, um, you mentioned a lot of a lot of parts that you actually leverage data points about Where Gen Z hangout. Um, you know what kind of brand they probably resonate with and that helps to put together a render list that you will do strategic partnership With. Um, but I I heard a lot of stories around people when and the way you describe just now is like you know this is the insight that you can use which is not a common thing for a lot of people who need to deal with data and research. So I'm curious when you are trying to look for this kind of data points. What are the biggest challenges you Face. And how do you overcome that?

24:25.60

Jia nina 

That's a very very good question. So I think in challenges in data. Um, there is naturally first you have to know what you're looking for, right? A lot of people look at data and they come to a bunch of data. But.

24:41.16

Jia nina 

They don't know exactly the parameters of what you're looking for so you could be looking for a needle in a haystack or you could be looking for the right data,wrong project.not knowing how to marry it right? and I think in data as well. Data on the alone. It tells you a story if you're willing to connect it. So. The biggest challenge in itself is that data presents a lot of opportunities but you need to put specific parameters around it so that you can connect the dots and align it to your opportunities and the goals that you really want to do so I've known of you know instances or. Um, you know of some marketers that I've shared like you know I did a lot of research around this thing and and and then I was doing that other campaign and it didn't really pan out the way I want it to and they always ask you know so like what went wrong? What do you think was not. You know was not that was not there and what wasn't clicking so I always tell them that you know first. Be clear of your campaign objectives if if this is an acquisition play or this is a retention play or this is a conversion play first align that and then look at the data in terms of your customers and then build the parameters around and centric to your campaign so that you don't get frustrated when you don't see things happen. And that you are eliminating as much possible errors that are going to factor and affect your campaign and your efficacies and then eventually I think set very precise targeting and parameters. We click data. So if you're looking to do.

26:11.70

Jia nina 

Um, and for for example, like a conversion play I would say okay I'm I'm planning to convert this customer um to to to buy another product to be a frequent user of another product. But if I am targeting a customer only who has predominantly. Been inactive right? and I'm targeting a across cell in terms of a very highly active engaging campaign. It's a little bit of a mismatch and I'll give you an example of that right? For example, me as a payments platform I notice that my customer has, you know, stored their cart on file. And they have enabled you know id metrics right? So what it tells me is that this customer likes convenience and this customer does not want to go through the hassle of inputting you know your cart numbers or their information they preferred as seamless experience and less friction as possible now on to the next point me as a business knowing this. And knowing that this customer usually traditionally spends more on high ticket items now as a business I would say okay most of your transactions have gone true and it doesn't look like this person has a problem with purchasing as a business I would then offer this customer a premium product. Right? Like hey maybe you are. You're an all-time traveler and you you know you spend this kind of um, you know 4 to 500 ring it average now. What if you were to also buy insurance on your travel. You know what? if you were also to buy a premium travel package right? that has a little bit more at advantage to your customers. So.

27:43.50

Jia nina 

Pairing the right data and and sort of pairing and knowing what to look for and putting the right parameters is very important versus me offering a loan to a customer that may not need it or is not exhibiting data points that they are even remotely interested in and I would always tell customer marketeers that. You can't force your customers to buy products. You can only relate to them and the way that it's going to hit a closer successful metrics in our and and your kpi is that you are telling stories to people who naturally have an appetite and in hunger for the things that you're already saying. Yeah.

28:21.15

Julie

Got it and just not one of the data that you mentioned is mps so you diligently for that perch. Check you keep actually keeping track of basically the Nps Score now I've heard people say some some articles say nps is outdated. Okay I mean I'm ah.

28:36.87

Jia nina 

Ah, this reminds me of the time that I was on panel with um the the head of marketing at store hub and she said you know Loyalty was bullshit and I completely disagreed and we totally went off.

28:38.84

Julie

Um, definitely serious on debate so over here. What's your point of view.

28:54.20

Jia nina 

At each other at it but all in good fun, very very healthy to debate. So um, coming back to your point. Um Nps is not outdated right because you have to understand. It's just like marketing rate marketing transcends over time we evolve. And that is always going to be the heart and secret source of the magic of being in this role now Mps says work and the reason why you don't work is probably You're not asking direct questions or the format is outdated. There are different ways that you can engage your customers and asking Nps. And I think this is still a practice that we do at big pay. Um, and it's proven very effective and it's given us extra browning points I guess from customers because they felt they felt hurt and they felt that as ah as a business we are engaging them in ah in a  two-way conversation and we are asking them.

29:46.85

Jia nina 

Like what are your preferences. What do you think about? this is this something that we could improve or is this something that you particularly enjoy you know and what is something that you would like to see you know continuingly as you continuously use our product. Um in this line of service. So for me, it is always. Making sure you are asking questions in the right tone of voice in the right format and you making sure that you do it in a way that is most up to date. So Once you have those things in place I think it remains a very valuable tool to any business.

30:19.99

Julie

Is there. Any example that you you potentially can share around what are the potential actions that you have actually taken based on the Nps findings.

30:31.99

Jia nina 

yeah, absolutely so I think marketing to a different markets is very different. So how you would market in Malaysia versus how you would market to Singapore is very different and when we were expanding big pay into the Singapore market. We had to. Relearn behaviors and we had to. We cannot assume that the data points that we had in the Malaysia market are going to apply across the board. Yes, everybody needs financial services. Yes, everybody wants to be a millionaire and everybody wants to have the best product but the market behavior and maturity and receptiveness is. Completely different ballgame so when we're in Singapore we have to talk to as many people as possible in terms of what would their brand perception to as big pay. What would they? What did they like most upon the onboarding experiences? What we thought we could do better as a brand and who we thought you know who they would like to see us collaborate with to give them a value added offer um to be competitive and to have the right usps in the market. And upon discovery we realized that certain brands for example, like shopback and shoppee were very top of mind brands and because they had seen that synergy with us in Malaysia we have very strong affiliation with these partners in Malaysia so we were like oh okay, you know now we have the right? um.

31:54.66

Jia nina 

Answers and you know looking at these data points and market and consumer demand and market and be like okay it makes sense to strike a synergy collaboration in these markets in Singapore and to talk to these counterparts. We also knew as a product the demand for digital assets was so much higher. Okay. So everyone's into the web free craze cryptocurrency I will not get into the whole situation and what's happening in that market. 

32:21.77

Julie

That will be for another episode. Ah.

32:29.88

Jia nina 

Um, yeah I will be for your day I would love to go about it but this would have been a 5 hour conversation

Um, so I think cryptocurrency you know the transition into web 3 and so many people are now moving into ownership of digital assets and with the Singapore market. There was just so much more of a higher appetite and they were already sort of educated investors. They just wanted an avenue that gave them very competitive access affect rates or where they can turn crypto into liquid very quickly more seamlessly and whatnot and having knowing that that put cryptocurrency about priority product in our roadmap as a business we made that decision because.

33:04.30

Jia nina 

There was a market demand for it and every marketer knows this right? You got to act on a timely manner the moment you don't strike the iron when it's hot. You've lost the plot and it's ah it's a missed opportunity right? It's opportunity cost for you as a business so we we moved very quickly based on the data that we had from Mps. And that's exactly why we delivered our crypto exchange and and we delivered a crypto. We got our licensing and and we basically rolled out in the market in our offerings q three last year

33:33.56

Julie

I see so that's the reason behind behind that. Okay now I know

33:38.73

Jia nina 

That's you just make smarter decisions and you make more informed decisions right? It's more of customers customers are telling you hey this is what I would like from you and if you have this I would sign up I would use it I would evangelize your product. If you deliver it on X Y Z right? You need to first have versus me as a business thinking hey you know I've got this research data point and I think this is where the market is going towards too I've heard it directly from the Horse's mouth. So The customers are telling you directly what you want and this is the golden piece of Information. If.

34:10.94

Jia nina 

You know how to use it and you know how to act on it in a timely fashion. Um, yeah, you you have ah a speed in terms speedy go to market and that's how you win the game right.

34:22.17

Julie

I Really like how your thought process is like a very step by step very methodical framework right? and I love to learn a little bit more about if you have another case study that you can share with us about how you use data. In in your marketing strategy and it could be ah just now we touch on growth and then if you have anything that you want to touch on Campaign. We can do that too.

34:47.63

Jia nina 

Ah, um, there are 2 problems my answers. So the first one in terms of being very method all of ah like you know, having a step of of everything I think it is a personal trait I think I've just been true.

35:04.21

Jia nina 

What? um I like to see things in a flow. I like ah order just a personal preference because to me it's if I can map it out and I can see how it's gonna go step by step. It's just so much more organized. Um. Number 2 I think in terms of another campaign where I can share with you in terms of how data has has influenced this step by-step guide. Um maybe acquisition campaigns on digital. Um number one I think we first needed to identify channels. Okay, we knew that we were going to do btl and that was very very. Niche and targeted in terms of who we were going to look at in terms of you know on digital and our audience and and what was the offer that we were going to give. Um, so looking at data points right? You you know people always throw this like oh yeah, Facebook mirroral audience groups you know like audience groups like mirroring mirroring audience. Ah, it's a very very popular. You know, phrase word. But what does it really mean so looking at your data points in terms of okay. I've got these presets of customers which I think potentially can switch over and come over to to use our product but they are existingly not fintech or financial service app users. Maybe they are they are using investment apps instead right? but they.

36:24.14

Jia nina 

But they would like to see different different access or different suits of products you know, ah 1 social where a financial service can have all these products so we would then um, engage and we kind of build a strategy around okay looking at data point is this customer predominantly has spent a lot of time on academies or. Has actually been our a gig economy folk Greg and we were like okay so we now have different cohorts and we have different datasets what we're going to offer and how we're going to acquire is we're going to tell them hey. Ah, for those of you who have really like upscaling and learning and development and has been spending on online. You know why? not? Ah, we know that this is a subscription payment behavior that they have and so we can tell them like hey why not automate your expenses and keep track of it. With analytics on big pay because everything if you've moved on big pay. Naturally everything that is track is in real time you comparatively to a bank that's going to send you a statement in one month later and you have to manually track it on your excel or or whatever apps that you use. It's naturally already captured in your home screen and your analytics page. So we eliminate the mental logistics of having to manually do it and record it somewhere and being able to track your expenses and do it on a subscription base now. All you have to make sure is that your account is loaded with money right? because we put the power the financial tool empowerment and fight money management into your hands and.

37:51.17

Jia nina 

Versus another group which is okay maybe I am an expert and I'm traveling here in Malaysia I don't have a big pay. But I am very used to remitting money abroad. Maybe back home or something now we know this is an acquisition play that we will sell them not the financial access but we already know. Missing somebody at home here's how you can do it and the first one is fee free and this one's on us right? You would send it in good like you know, less than 24 hours it depends on the corridor that you have and I think like I mentioned earlier right? The first one's fee is sort of like giving them a carrot that you know and offer they can't refuse. Um, it makes the customer feel special as well because you know we are doing. We're going above and beyond to welcome them and to give them a product. A first time you know a special offer everyone likes to feel special so you know you always make people feel special and then you give them you know access to products that they will need so when you do different kinds of. Um, segmenting like this on an acquisition plate. It goes back to how data allows us to know that these are customers that are likely to convert because these are customers that already exhibit habits outside of your app or outside of your lines of of products and services. Um, that shows that they have a very strong inclination to use your product and be converted to to be acquired and then converted.

39:13.46

Julie

Gotcha. So even if you want to give someone else free things so we have to give them something useful I think a lot of times we thought you know free is everything no.

39:22.20

Jia nina 

No. So like if you were to tell me that you know I've been caffeine Deprived. You know for you know for a bit and and and I suddenly give you a carrot you're going to be like excuse me a lunch is happen. You know did doesn't make sense. You don't want carrot you want coffee right. But if I can you coffee at that point in time and you'd be like oh thank you so Much. This is exactly what I needed in this moment now I've created a very happy user Happy User experience number 2 I've given the user exactly what he or she needs at the point in time. Likely with this associated happy experience. This customer is you are going to like this is fantastic. Where do where do I continue using this. How do I continue buying coffee like where do I get the the coffee you know because it's great and I need it at a point in Time. So I think timely fashion and giving customers exactly what they need is. So so imperative and it's not just throwing something at them and hope it sticks right? It's exactly yeah, being very tailored. Yeah.

40:19.87

Julie

Okay I'll remember this formula. now I want to shift a little bit into how would you Define success in either marketing or.

40:37.88

Julie

And organizations and whether or not this has evolve all the time first.

40:40.24

Jia nina 

This is a very very good question defining success I think Success is a very subjective thing right? Success looks very different to you. It looks very different to me looks very different to my my parents. Um, but I think you know. As an organization I would I would tackle that one because we've we've spoken quite broadly and quite a large in terms of marketing with relations right? but I would like to touch on it from an organization standpoint and I would tell you why it's important later Um, having buy-ins on your marketing effort across the board. Um, and your campaign's on a 3 60 level. Um and just having everyone have the same sense or maybe a certain percentage of advocacy and a sense of pride and ownership in terms of you know the the campaigns is a metric of success to me.

41:37.44

Jia nina 

Because essentially you have successfully evangelized the goal and the outcome and the process and if it means you have successfully told a story even within your organization that they are now willing to be part of your campaign and campaign the messaging for you. So everyone has skin in the game. Um, and I think successful marketing as an organization is also you know seeing the pride and joy of you know your employees advocating the brand you know, having tied in with the mission of the product that you want to do feeling a sense of belonging in terms of your Dna.

42:15.70

Jia nina 

Um, and I think you know if they naturally would even refer it to your friends and family right? The the whole evangelism that comes from a very natural state without you having to push all for it is the winning I mean the winning metric I think it was. It's what determines success and. If you ask me? what's the 1 specific thing that I would I would do for example to maximize this right Um, or ship goals or have this success metric I would say get everyone on board. You know the. If you they know that's the saying right? if you want to go if you want to go fast. go alone but if you want to go far go together right? Yeah and I think it makes a lot of sense so give a slice of the pie to your teammate. Don't be a hoarder right? I know it's nice to. Stand at the the mountaintop. But if you know you by yourself. It gets very lonely and what I've learned is that when you share a slice of your pie. Get your teammates involved. Get get people in the organizations involved. Everyone. Is going to come together and you're going to have a collective win and I promise you from the experiences I've had 4 years in big pay. It's it's so magical and it's it's one of the best feelings ever because everybody wins and everybody is now geared for the success of this project.

43:40.24

Julie

I have a lot of things that I wanted to you know, ask here because because actually this is exactly 1 of the questions that I want to ask just now because you you bring an div in Goliath 2 times right? and and when you are bringing that examples right? This the thing that came to my mind is.

43:50.70

Jia nina 

Yeah.

43:59.98

Julie

Now you need a team to to fight with goliath but you need an aligned team especially when if you're a David team. How do you align them. So you just not ask. Ah, you just not answer that question so without me asking which is you need to give a slice of the pipe. Can you give us a specific examples of like how exactly do you do that and and in a way that is genuine right? I think people who sensitive is not not really come from originally so so I'm curious. How do you How do you go about this.

44:32.29

Jia nina 

I think the first thing that people need to know and the first thing from personal experience is no matter what business you're in. You need to know that you're in the business of people right? That's the first thing and what I what I where I'm going with that is you need to come in and know that. You spend 9 to 5 or the most time you're going to spend in the office right? are with your colleagues and they become like a second set of friends or family that you're going to have now if you build relationships with these with these people around you you understand what makes them tick and you understand their personal goals in philosophy and you can never run a. Ah, project or work in a company and be completely detached I just I just don't believe in it and I think that most people when you have that proximity and you have a team that is is bonded together and you just generally have I'm not saying that you need to tell your. Deepest secrets and go for you know Kumbaya ah sessions and whatnot I'm saying no who know what's happening with your neighbor know that? Okay, maybe my neighbor kimi is having a bad day. You know she's going through. She's going through some stuff and you know. Elevate something or knowing that my other colleague um has certain aspirations within the organization and if you are within your means to help them achieve that. That's not really in your kpi in terms of your work metrics. But that's on a human metrics and I think.

46:04.90

Jia nina 

That's one of the big things that people miss out. We are often so focused on chasing Kpis and metrics that are given you know by our bosses or by you know, ah organizations. We forget to check in with the human metrics with the people around us. So if we. Buy that in and we actually have relationships with people. Yeah, workload is going to become so much more collaborative. It's going to become easier for you and it's going to be easier for you to lobby something with so much more support because people know who you are and the Dna of who you. You know is your essence and and who you are and and you can't fake it. You're spending so much time interacting with people right? people are going to know you for that and so I would say that have relationships with people know that you're in the people business and build these relationships and then together collectively go and attack it. You know. And and that's exactly why I would go back to the example of Epo Mula we were actually the smallest and leanest teams compared to all of the the competitors and the wallets in the market but we came out with. Ah, cheap recognition from ministry of finance and the prime minister's office saying that this is such a well thought of you know experience from end to end from digital from your booth to your engagement to your bus and to you know your tech ah experiences your onboarding experiences.

47:34.26

Jia nina 

It has been fantastic and I'll tell you something I almost cried listening to that in person because god knows leading a project at that high level it meant that I couldn't mess up right? I would not let myself. Um, and there were just so many things on my shoulder that we were carrying on is it's product launch. It was it was. You know, presenting to the prime minister got know as I was was preparing for that that was that's a different story but we we didn't have the biggest team but we had the 18 and the reason why the a team could come together was because the a team knew skill sets and strengths. So maybe I was really good at coordination and bringing the band together. maybe maybe my my you know my colleague x x is really good at checking and making sure everything is is done on time. You're very good in terms of time management and then maybe colleague c is very good in communication and making sure that. A mandate is socialized across and nobody gets left behind so you need to tap into strengths from all your team to make sure you cover it delegate it trust your teammates and have proximity with them. That's what's going to let you win regardless of how tall the order is no matter what goliaths you're going to go through in projects. That is what is going to help you in the long run.

48:52.43

Julie

I love that I think you you probably just make the title of our share human metrics method in order to win well with that we have reached of our very exciting lightning round all we call it bright lightning round because we actually have 4 quick questions for you.

49:09.72

Jia nina 

Okay God I hope I am Ready.  Okay, let's do it. But what he's always like very exciting but you're like what wish you can ask. Let's do it

49:11.59

Julie

Um, are you ready? Ah, ah, do it. Okay.

49:23.18

Julie

question number 1 What are the most important skills that a marketer should have in your opinion?

49:35.42

Jia nina 

Ah, okay skills as a marketer number one never be afraid to experiment. Um, you know it's a really highly creative job. So just experiment, don't be afraid of making mistakes. The worst thing that you can do is the mistake and once you've made the mistake. It's done and you'll just figure out another way that didn't work but don't make mistakes that cost your business millions of dollars. I just had to put that caveat there. Um, keep yourself updated with market trends because you are in the front line of your business success. To be honest, you are the first line of defense of your company and. You are the informed person that's going to make or break your business in terms of how much they're going to go and I mean market market entries and barriers that you're going to cross um know how to keep your language simple know how to tell stories. Um, and talk to your peers right? because you may have a great idea but your peers always offer a different standpoint so we are all looking at the same things but the way we infer it the way we approach. It is very different so always talk to your peers. That's where you can solidify your decisions or your ideas. And um I think last but not least. You know, enjoy the process, always enjoy the process.

50:53.40

Julie

Well you you you? Although you say you're not sure if you're ready, but you ace this because you kind of already answered my second question which are supposed to be what advice would you give to someone who interested to press your careern marketing. But I think a lot of the things that you say just out reapply.

51:12.20

Jia nina 

Um, if someone wants to pursue a career marketing I'll just say go for it.

51:28.40

Jia nina 

What's the worst that can happen right? Like if you if you try it and you fail you've just figured this is not for you and you can pivot and move on. But if you try and you succeed you would have hit goal and you would have found somewhere you belong and personally you know that's why Nike the saying is famous.

51:46.70

Julie

Just do it.

51:47.84

Jia nina 

Jazz and personally I'll add the final touch which is you miss a hundred percent of the shots. You don't take so just do it.

51:56.81

Julie

Loved it. Um, but that question what are the key data or key metrics and you monitor in either when you're building a marketing or brand.

52:09.81

Jia nina 

Um I would look at Brand sentiment I think there are 4 prongs of this right? So first is brand sentiment knowing what your customers are saying about you whether positive or negative so that you can pulse check in terms of whether you're very good as a brand in the Market. Um. And then you know seeing if you if you have budget for it. Social Media Tool is great for that. Ah Brand share. Are you your customer’s  top of mind choice. Um, and and and whether they are organically evangelizing your brand for you. That's how you know. And then the other two would be acquisition or retention. So for the acquisition bit I would say looking at just how much of customers are growing in your market in terms of the market that you're marketing to and the retention is just knowing that you know how much of product adoption is is happening and in customer staying with you and adopting different lines of products. Um, because that would then tell you um that they that your product is actually giving an added Value. You know, ah to their lives is making their lives better and it's yeah, essentially you would know that it's working right? that the formula and the metrics is working.

53:11.39

Julie

Awesome! The four key that yeah for the 4 key metrics that you look into my last question. What is the 1 marketing book or resources that you would recommend.

53:24.48

Jia nina 

Ah, books. Oh ah, you know before I answer which title. This is something that I would tell a lot of people but only because this has been something that's been asked to me quite recently a lot right? So I would say don't read a book just because for the sake of reading it? um. Go for a title that inspires you or provokes you right? and doesn't matter what that is, just a title that really really grabs your attention if it comes to marketing. Honestly, there are 2 books of a bit of a wildcard here. So. There's this book called the 22 immutable laws of marketing. This book was published all the way I think in the early 90s right I was probably so young. So so young and I would say that this book is perfect for a blend of marketing veterans to remind us of the commandments of marketing. It's a good refresher. And it's something to keep us in line in check to make sure that we upheld  ourselves to that standard and for those who are looking for a career in marketing who are new and just need something that is not overcomplicated, not drowning jargons and you know not overwhelmed. This is a perfect starting point for those who are a little bit more seasoned. May I offer the title of Made in The Future. This was a gifted book to me I think very recently. But I think this is marketing in the modern day and we're talking about changes in you know media content and everything um customers.

54:54.10

Jia nina 

Buy sell perceptions and processes in logic and this is great for all marketers who want to drive in a very competitive landscape when you are fighting for attention with all other businesses. Um, and this is kind of the book that tells us the transition between the marketing styles of Kodak and Apple. Who's yeah, so read that book I think it's so great because it gave me so much perspective. Yeah.

55:20.00

Julie

The second one is something I haven't checked out before I definitely gonna look over that one. You love to give bonus. Thank you Nina ah 1 final final questions where can folks find you if they want to reach out and learn more about what you're up to yeah.

55:34.10

Jia nina 

Ah, this is not a trick question right? haha

55:34.62

Julie

No, no, no, not. It's your question. 

55:37.88

Jia nina 

Um, well I think the best place to connect. You can find me on Linkedin Jia Nina and I think you should be able to find me because I haven't come across anyone with my name I mean personally so yeah I like kind of connecting with people. If you ever want to change ideas you know bounce off certain concepts or just connect and talk about industries whether it's payments crypto anything. Yeah I think Linkedin is the best place to do it.

56:04.73

Julie

Amazing! Amazing! Thank you once again for being here. Ah thank you so much Nina This has been a very awesome money.

56:09.00

Jia nina 

Thank you, Thank you I Know this has been a great conversation and and thank you so much I really enjoyed it.

56:18.33

Julie

Ah thank you folks so much for listening if you find this valuable. You can subscribe to to show on Apple Podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast set also please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review. Um, because that really helped our listeners to find our podcasts so you can find all our episodes or learn more about the show at vase.ai see you in the next episode Thank you.