Secret to Brand Growth? Mental and Physical Availability

Henrik Petersen

Fractional CMO at Brand2B

In this episode, Julie interviews Henrik Petersen, a fractional CMO who has over 20 years of experience in B2B marketing for software companies such as Zendesk and Microsoft. Henrik delves deep into the pivotal role of marketing in sculpting a company’s brand. He emphasizes the transformative power of ‘Brand Love’ and the unparalleled value it brings to businesses in the digital era. Using vivid examples, Henrik deciphers the nuances of brand perception and the factors that drive consumers towards familiar names.

About our guest:

As a Head of Marketing, Henrik is passionate about using an evidence-based approach to help companies build distinctive brands and drive sustainable growth. With more than 20 years of experience in B2B marketing, he has gained a wealth of expertise working with fast-growing companies like Zendesk, Microsoft, and various tech startups.

He helps companies diagnose performance and develop a winning marketing strategy to acquire customers by giving your brand a broad reach and implementing effective demand-capture programs.

His marketing experience includes :

Brand Management
Demand Generation (Demand Capture)
Digital Marketing
Public Relations (Corporate Communication, Analyst Relations and Social Media)
Product Marketing
Inside Sales (SDR/BDR)
Marketing Budgets
Customer and Market Research
Search Engine Optimization (SEO)
Performance Marketing (Search Engine Marketing, PPC)
Localization
Campaign Planning and Development
Field Marketing (Events)

In today’s episode, we discuss :

Business owners’ views on marketing
Grow business revenue & margin with marketing
Branding increases the margins of the business
Convince stakeholders to invest in marketing via the sales funnel
When and how to invest in brand building
First step in brand building is to identify growth barriers
Physical availability of products
How advertising works
Advertising creates brand memories
Ways to justify marketing investment with CEO & CFO
Marketing with a limited budget
Don't keep changing your brand messaging
Associate your brand with a specific job to be done
Case study of Salesforce
Build long-term growth by marketing to non-consumers
Understanding customers who are in-market and out-of-market
Secret to Brand Growth? Mental and Physical Availability
Physical availability

Where to find Henrik Petersen:

Where to find Julie Ng:

References:

Zendesk : https://www.zendesk.com/
How brands grow : https://www.amazon.com/How-Brands-Grow-What-Marketers/dp/1511383933

Transcript:

Introduction
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welcome to winning with data driven marketing podcasts this podcast is
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brought to you by was Vase.ai market research I'm Julie your host in this
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podcast and in every single episode we talk to Industry leaders marketers and
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growth experts in Asia about how to use data to enhance the ROI in their marketing activities we bring you real
0:23
case studies while giving you background on how these leaders build their career
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to where they are today joining me today is Henrik Peterson a fractional CMO who

0:34

has over 20 years of experience in B2B marketing for software companies such as

Zendesk and Microsoft Henry is now also the CMO of brand2B who work with

startup Founders executive to deliver sustainable and profitable growth now for those of you who have been following

our podcasts you'll be no stranger to Henrik because it's also our podcast speaker for our fifth episode where he

shares a lot of insights and best practices of about how to use data and Market orientation to create a bidding

strategy now our conversations was so uh were so fruitful that we have to

actually bring in Henry for the second episode and this episode we're going to go through a little bit deeper into

several myth that we believe our target audience are also curious about so before that hello Henrik welcome to join

us again hi Julie and thanks for inviting me back it's a pleasure to be on the podcast

with you again yeah um in our last conversation training you mentioned to me something that we

actually didn't get to cover you you sure that you actually talked to uh quite a number of business owners

um so I am personally curious right as a business owner myself what are the insights that you can share with us

after so much conversation around business owners around around what's their view around marketing

yeah um yes I do get uh I have the opportunity to join uh well I try to

join as many uh you know opportunities I can to meet with business owners I think there's a couple of things that

you know I've observed is that they generally feel or say generally they

often do not have a marketing background and they often have a lot of questions a

bit of frustration sometimes with marketing where they feel like it's a very cluttered and my world where

um we you know in writing we talk about a lot of things that doesn't always make a lot of sense to to how they think

about business so um so that's one observation is that just they feel like marketing is is a

really uh Cloud space and we talk about a lot of new things marketers we talk about new shiny new shiny tools a new

way of doing things um and then the second part is the question I get almost always is so

how can marketing help grow our business and a lot of times they have already invested in marketing right so they have

been doing things maybe for for a long time and they often feel like it's not they don't really see their the results

that they were hoping for and so and again it usually it focused around how do we grow the business how

do we bring value to the business uh so I think today maybe we can talk about that I'd love to share more about

that but I can discuss like why why is it that you know they have a nice have

the perception that marketing is not working and I think very often it has to do with the not understanding

the how marketing brings value uh and of course also sometimes maybe marketing is

not doing what we should be doing but I think very often it's it's just that as marketers we're not good at explaining

in the the language and the terminally that's at business owners and also very often Finance used to determine value

business value yeah or I can see I can see how that two

things is what a lot of business owners may find hard to grabs especially when they don't have a marketing background

right so I'm very interested to go into the second question up like the second insights that you mentioned like so how

to grow business with marketing rates so in our just now before we be joining in the in the podcast session itself you

mentioned a couple of things that um if we can simplify the marketing concepts right

um uh on how do they actually help to grow the business how would you can you

talk a little bit more about that part yeah sure as I think um when you

if you had to put the head on as a business owner or as a CFO or Finance person right but they look at one value

what they're usually looking for is growth uh growth in terms of you know

Revenue growth ensuring new markets uh Market penetration you know winning

of the existing buyer and so growth is typically one bucket they're looking at

the second one is is profitability or margins how do we either retain or

maintain our emergence or how do we increase our margins right those are the two things they're usually looking for

and you another way of breaking it down is to look at what you can say is the the reach of your company

how do they increase the reach that means how do we reach more customers how do we get more consumers customers

buyers to to buy our products or use our services um and then the second part

is around basically you call it sell more how do we expand the wallet so uh

once we get a customer how do we get into how do we put it keep them and how do we get them to buy more products and

like I said the third one really is is the margins how do we maintain healthy margin for products

right and I think the the good news is there or maybe not so much news but like the good story that marketing can

actually help on all three uh right so we are well positioned to health and both growth but also the

margins and I think the the main uh where the main area where marketing can

help is really around the building the company's brand right so um and again this is I think

both consumer and also B2B so most of my experience actually is in B2B right but for B2B brand also like there's a lot of

value in strengthening your brand right a stronger brand means you know you can reach more people more people will know

your brand um more people will consider your brand um but also a strong brand typically

also can uh demand higher premiums higher pricing so so yeah so that's that's where I

think we as large as we can figure out what we talk about this even though we are working on social media or digital or events we

need to figure out how do we tie the conversation back to what we do in terms of value to how to how do we help the

companies reach more sell more and increase margins

there is also a lot of times that I I heard on marketing

um I really want to grow the brand because I see that as a sustainable way to grow um but my my direct report or my

business owner actually are impatient um and actually keep on asking me about how does marketing Drive growth in in

this month and next month in in this quarter uh so I find myself uh marketers

May sometimes find themselves only available through the short-term techniques uh whatever you want that

yeah I think I think you're right I mean I think that's very common in in the company that I think in the last couple

of decades also I think we've seen that shift where I think as Marcus as we have kind of seen that okay we need to justify uh the

ROI or what we're doing uh right and the easiest way to do that very often is to focus on on activities that typically

has a very short-term uh Roi right so that means we we focus more and more on

on uh I mean the language I think we often uses demand gen lead gen

Performance Marketing right things we can measure this month this quarter and say look we spent you know fifty

thousand dollars this quarter on Performance Marketing and these are the leads we got back they are in the pipeline now so hence this is our our

wireless so I definitely agree that that's that is that is a trend and has been a trend

uh I think and we can cover that today also here right I think when you talk to business owners I think with you you

explain some of this concept around why a it's important also to invest in your brand they do actually get it I think

very often you're just not very good enough at explaining it as marketers right so I think they do see the value

of the brand when you ask business owners you know don't you want your brain to be have a Famous Brand a

trusted brand they absolutely do right and they same when you talk to finance

they also see the value of our brand I think one way to explain this is to uh to use the the

sales funnel or funnel um so whether you like it or dislike the user phone number the funnel it is a

very good way to illustrate this right where typically you have the funnel where you have awareness preference uh

awareness consideration preference and and buying and then well you add loyalty

at the end maybe um all right but you can see again if you kind of illustrate saying like if nobody

knows your brand well that means nobody's going to be you know considering your brand and the end very

few people's gonna buy your brand right so they illustrating that putting some numbers in place and saying right now

only two percent of the login knows about our brand that means we are kind of limited to a very small piece of the

overall Market and I think the other thing also we can use is around price premium very often

when you are don't have a strong brand you may often have to Discount uh your

pricing to to to get the deal which again is not ideal right because we are looking to to increasing or earning

higher margins to create a profitable business so I think those are some of the ways to

to explain it but I'm happy to also we can kind of go into that I was a little bit later to kind of find other ways to

kind of illustrate why it's important to build your your brand awareness and your

um straight of your brand uh um maybe if this is a good time we can

also go into it now like how do we know when is the right time to for us to

start investing in building Brands um and and when we said investing Brands I think a lot of people wouldn't

necessarily disagree but there's also the questions around like um other than how much to invest when to

invest and what exactly does investment in brand and deals yeah good question

there so I definitely like I said like when I uh some of the talks I've been to and meeting business owners sometimes uh

I do meet with business owners who are startup Founders who are just very very same very early stage in their business

where they are still kind of exploring their business model they still haven't

figured out you know whether they're this kind of company or that kind of company right so at that point I'll say

it's probably too a bit too early to spend put too much effort into you know building a a brand doesn't mean you

can't do something you still need to figure out of course test the market and try and get some customers to prove your

business model but I probably wouldn't put in a a lot of investment into building a

building brain because brain building does take time it's not something you build over a quarter like it's it's a

year-long and multi-year uh sometimes multi-day paid investment you need to

build on right but then here the other point I was like you never get started yeah then you you never get there

um but if you're really that early stage and you're still in that phase where you're still exploring different uh

business model uh it's probably a little bit too early right so if I can find another way of

kind of putting that out you say like think about yourself when you uh you are

young but like uh leave it a bit late but uh for young people maybe who are still in there early like in their teens

and 20s trying to figure out uh what do I want to be like right it's like it's

all the companies to Define your own brand am I gonna be a a lawyer am I

going to be a doctor I'm gonna be a professional football player I don't know what whatever your Ambitions might

be right but when we're young we're still trying to figure out who we're gonna be right and I kind of see that's the same as an early stage startup

sometimes the you know we have one idea of how the product can be used but then as we start

to order customers we figure out actually it can also be used in a totally different way and we figure out actually our business is not really in

the analytics phase it's in something else it's in the data changing space Maybe right

um so that's kind of like the same way you're young you still try to pick out who you are once you I think once you've got to

determined okay I'm gonna be a lawyer and then you can start investing in getting the right education building the

right Networks you're buying the right clothes to be a lawyer I don't know right but before you make that decision

it's probably a bit too early so that's kind of like a different way to kind of explain like

early stage so once you've kind of identified what I would call your deliberate strategy you know this is the

Mark I'm going after and you have checked that this is there's a good size of market then you

can put a more deliberate strategy and budget in place too to go after that market

yeah um and once once say a a company

um already identified that you know they are in that space what would you suggest uh they kick-started to to invest in uh

brand new balance company

yes I think actually the way I would look at it is to say so like when I talk to to my clients and

they come to me and say like how do we grow I normally look for what are the barriers to grow

right so of course it varies but typically and it it very often even if

you are a startup with with some maybe a couple years experience and you are an

established a mid-sized company but you haven't really invested that much before typically I would say there's a common

theme around what are some of the barriers right so typically it's brand awareness nobody knows you exist right

so you probably you build a fantastic product so a fantastic service but

nobody knows you exists so nobody is calling you right so how do we how do we get the world to know that we

actually out there we have a solution to to the the problem uh the

other challenge could also be that we are just not available so maybe our

product is not available to to those customers in the format um you know we can't sell this product

in in that market all those set of customers right so how do we how do we make the product available and that

could be both in terms of packaging distribution pricing rights how do we how do we fix that

um but I'll say in most cases when I talk to companies and also like I said earlier most of them have already tried

something right so usually I've already they're already on Google doing their Google ads they have already maybe done

some events they have maybe some telemarketing people doing telemarketing

for them they typically try that so typically the generally is that there's just not enough people and it's back to

the reach they're just not reaching enough people right and also the second audience is

nobody knows or nobody trusts that brand right so if you don't know a brand very

often it feels very risky to buy a new brand so I think those are typically the

barriers so then you could break that down with the other weeks how do we remove those barriers

um um so that and that means how do we increase brand uh awareness how do we

increase increase the brand consideration and also how do we capture

more of the demand so I I was thinking this morning um

like you know so and also popular why do people not invest in brand I think it was a part of the reason is also

sometimes even as marketers we maybe don't have a an accurate understanding

of how advertising actually works right we there is this I see this quite a lot

there is a belief that if we just run a campaign um if you push out a campaign whether that's an ad campaign or an email

campaign then it will persuade people to buy our product

um but when you think about it and also if you look at all the research that's been done that's not really how advertising works right or promotion

works I mean sure like you you can have examples where you show an ad and somebody sees you ad and say okay I need

to buy your ice cream I still need to buy your product right but in in general that's not how advertising works and to

kind of Illustrated we can take an example right so I think a couple of weeks back I had to ship a package to

from Singapore to London and I had to make sure it got better the next day uh

um so it has to be an express delivery and then to make sure they was there and I'm I would know that you know it's on

its way I want to be able to track the package right so so then you say now I

have a job to be done I need to ship a package somewhere so already as soon as I kind of had you

know I knew I had to do this I already in my mind I already had a few options in mind one of them was a DHL Logistics

because I've used them before probably because I knew that right and in my head right I kind of knew that they do

Express and I also knew that they do tracking so already now you could say as

soon as I have that need I come to my mind I already knew one option at least I had right

sure then I went to Google to search right to look for their website um and

also when I search I can see like in the Google search there's a few other companies that come up I can't remember the names I was just expressed and

expressed like there's a few other options but these are not Brands I know like so you could say like would I click

on them maybe it was somebody in a brand I've seen before I might consider it these

are Brands I've never heard of before so would I take the risk of putting my package to somebody I never heard before

maybe sometimes maybe I do but most likely we go with the brand we would

know which I did in this case right so so you could say

um you know here the brand is really powerful because uh you know it could

have been another brand bite but like because I knew the brand and I think that all the research we have I think there was some LinkedIn and reports also

a while back that says most at least in case of B2B bias Most B to B bias when

they start their buying Journey they're buying research they typically already have two to three brands in mind before

they even start researching and at the end 90 I think it was are those B2B

buyers end up buying from one of those three grants so that means if your brand is not one

of those Brands your chances of getting that deal is is quite small right and

that's really the challenge for for small brand is yet nobody knows us and even if they get to CRX they're less

likely to click on it less likely to respond to it because you're just not a known familiar brand

so you could say if I go back to the argument before when we say okay but it adds really work by persuading people to

buy then you would think if if you showed me an ad to date right if I see an ad to

data says we can shift packages to London would that persuade me to buy

the answer is no right because I don't have a job to do anymore my package ever been shipped so right now I don't have a

need so you can't really persuade me to buy anything right so um

so maybe we say okay but then if I show you the ad maybe you remember my ad next time but but again all the research

shows that typically especially with like with sales promotion uh and I would consider

most Google ads or any other search engineer or advertising if it's very

sales promotion we have a tendency as buyers to kind of ignore those and then not very effective in terms of

generating brand memories right so that and which is what we need to do to to generate a brand awareness

and brand consideration um so so what we kind of can learn from

that is that advertising really goes back to the the main purpose of uh of

brand advertising is to create brand memories so that next time I have a need then you

know the hopefully the Brand memory will come up and say okay you need to use Brand X to do this

um so it's both about creating brand awareness but also not just awareness

because I might know the brand but also linking my Awareness on my Brand memory to this specific buying situation

I I like this uh idea of thinking a lot because a lot of times

um we measure the ads that we put out directly to the bottom of the funnel of

how many leads the goddess um but it is also in your case

um going through the examples that you mentioned how do I measure brand awareness and the brand memories that

the ads have successfully created for the audience because technically it will bring in rallies in the future it's just

not now so it feel like a chicken egg issue that we kind of have to balance

between um in cases but it doesn't actually get asleep how do I know my ass is actually

working when it comes to Brand awareness and creating brand memories for me to keep justifying the investment

yeah I think another probably the biggest I think challenge for for brand marketers or or marketers or brand

managers is is how do we justify this how do we know it works right and I think that's also back to

what we talked about earlier right that's the reason why often we kind of fall back on just keep doing mobile

Performance Marketing to keep doing more things than where we can show the results right now and because it is difficult to show

um the the impact of building brand because it's it's not something you just you don't just show a couple of ads this

week and then only you know you have the brand awareness it takes a really long time and even if so you can measure out

of this you can um there's some indicators you can use to say like is this working or not but

again they move very slow so it's like it's almost like you know you can look at things like

your direct with traffic like do more people come to your website that's one indicator but again especially for small

Brands the impact of the change will be so little that you probably won't see a

difference in that corner right um so I think the first step here is when you work with your Finance team and

with your business owner you need to kind of set expectation here that it's not something you don't build you don't become Nike or you know uh Salesforce

overnight right it takes a long time to do this there are ways you can track this as they said you can look at things

like diary with with traffic but again you need to monitor it over a longer period of time

um if you have budget but again for smaller brains that's typically too expensive is to invest in brand tracking

uh surveys panel surveys again for small Brands I'm not a big fan of it

because it's the the volume is so low that really hard to get accurate data on it

um so it is something you need to kind of kind of set expectation that it takes a while to to build that over time

you know and be talking probably a year uh you will start seeing improvements and then once you talk about multiple

years you can start seeing Google right but like setting the right expectation up front that yeah we're gonna invest

some money here and then you won't see their results right now usually when you explained it

um in my experience like Finance business owners they do understand this uh right so we just need to be setting

the right expectations and then I think then finding some metrics you feel like because over time we will monitor these

and make sure that it's it's you're seeing progress um it is I would say it is a challenge

also because um like I said building brand not building

a brand is not easy right there's a lot of different variables uh both in terms

of like are you reaching the Right audience with your whether that's apps or events there's multiple ways you you

can do this um but even if you're running let's say you're running a an advertising campaign

how do you know that people actually see yours right I think it's although we were promised something very differently

in what was that a you know a decade or two ago with digital ads digital ads were supposed to be easy to track and

all this right but I think what we're seeing now is that actually it's even if you can measure Impressions and all

these things it's you know you don't actually know what people have actually seen it so we

could talk about attention if people actually the gig capture people's attention right

so so I definitely acknowledge that yes it's a difficult

um difficult thing to track but but there are ways to do it I'll say but the first

thing is to set the right expectations up front in my experience like I said it's you will see it and also yeah I'm

saying um we call it a misconception sometimes is

that brand advertising doesn't generate in the meat actually my experience that's not true we do see leads also

coming from Brand advertising yeah when I say brand advertising it doesn't always have to be advertising I

said that's multiple many ways you can build your brand it can just be you know being at the right events

um you know Finding other ways and reaching out uh to to your target audience

um so yeah that's you definitely right that it's

setting your right expectations there sort of people they'll say Hey you spend 50 000 on this and it didn't yield any

results so maybe you should stop doing it and I think that's very often is the challenge as I said we do these burst of

advertising and then we say okay now we've done the last quarter we don't have to do it more this year but actually all the research shows you this

needs to be a consistent approach so when you do this you need to know okay how do we spread the budget out so that

it's not a stop stop thing but it's something we run continually

yeah uh talking about spreading the budget uh do you have any uh techniques

that you can share with our audience on how to spread the budget in this case uh I think uh one uh just now you mentioned

using the sales funnel to illustrate I can imagine you'll probably may also use one one idea on top of my mind is using

the sales funnel to also illustrate spreading the budget I'm curious what's your point of view would that be

uh yeah I said like the reason I don't think there's a correct ratio whether you should spend 50 on brand building

and 50 on your uh demand capture um I think it's finding a balance at

least try to do both uh right I've seen so many articles where some people say

oh that's 80 20 50 50 you know I don't think there's a and I think it depends on where the

company is at right and I think uh but but I think the key thing is that you do both

I think one thing to consider I think especially for a smaller business where we don't have a lot of budget

um you know how do we you know how do we get enough coverage

so of course you might have too limited but I'll say one learning there is that it's it's better to get

uh I'll just say that like it's better to show my ad to you once rather than a better to show my one and

I add once to many people than to show my ad multiple times to a few people

so if you had to choose that so when you work with your idea if you can work with a media agency that can help you do this

right but you do the the first one is just it's better to get that first kind

of attention on your brand than just focusing on a few years so I guess that they go there to go for reach rather

than more touches and the reason they're assembly is once

people have been exposed to your brand once they are more they're more likely to buy from you right showing a smaller

group of people the same ad 10 times they might remember the driver like you get a much smaller reach so I think one

way of stretching your budget that way say go for reach rather than low impressions

right I think but that's unless you're really good at you to tell yourself you probably need to work with a media agency to help you

and I think the other thing also to remember is that your brand campaigns typically are different

than your sales promotion right so what we use typically in our Performance Marketing the ad copy and all this it it

doesn't work right so like what is very sales promotion worked really well for demand capture it doesn't work that it's

not very effective in terms of building brand memories so right so you do also need to invest in coming up with a brand campaign and

again one learning from from isida is that investing in creating a

a good creative campaign is is worth a lot right instead applying to create new

campaigns every quarter I'll say I'd rather spend a bit more on creating a really great campaign and then run it for a really long time I know sometimes

we as marketers we get tired of seeing the same app same campaign don't want to log in but reality is that most of our

prospects they don't think about our brand every day right so so even though we are tired of seeing that brand

campaign right so so I better spend a bit more to get a good creative campaign and if you

can afford to work with a creative agency to come up with that and then just run it for every long time I mean

I've run right campaigns for more than a year uh and it works no problem there so

instead of trying to keep coming up with new things go with the same messaging and also party because

building memories memory structures and your prospects of in their mind in their

break right it takes a a lot of consistency if we keep changing

our messaging and we keep talking about different things it's hard to kind of position your brand around a specific

buying situation right so remember that it's not just about brand awareness it's also around

linking it to a specific buying situation so you you could have in cases where

you know and it's always good to have increased awareness but if people don't associate your brand with a specific

buying situation even if they know your brand they might not think about you in a specific

situation right so um I think the case study I read a while

back was around sales sports right Salesforce really famous brand most people in B2B at least have heard about

Salesforce so if you're asking do you know Salesforce they'll say yes I know the brand so high level of awareness but

you may not associate them with all the things they actually do right so they typically most people know

them for Salesforce automation CRM you might not know them for other things right around

uh customer support or service ticketing system right so I know I used to move

and send this competing with them very often like you you know uh people didn't associate their brand with doing these

things so that's why it's really important that we think brand building with specific buying

situation so if I can go back to maybe like also

like some of the observations like when it's like I said when I go back to a meeting with business owner so I think

very often with the feedback from them is that we have like I said we have already invested in marketing

and what I see very often then I also provide a lot of experience in marketing right as marketers we like say we tend

to over over rotate and focus a lot on the that bottom of the funnel um

and we we often we see teams struggle with this right and we try all kind of

things uh you know we do content marketing right we we package things up

as content educational content even though it's full of marketing inside and if you push it out hoping somebody will

download that right um we do of course like performance monitoring Google search uh which I'm

definitely it's a good investment right but yeah it only really targets the the buyers who are in Market to buy all

right um but they always do things like if I just looked at my LinkedIn like almost every day I get somebody contacting me on

LinkedIn from somebody says we can do your legion for you right you just you pay us a hundred dollars a lead and we

will do your lead generator for you I'll try this it never works I've never had experience what this works they will

send you some leads but you know sales will just throw leads back I'd also say these are not really right and so I

think again it's when business owner accounting music we've tried all these things it doesn't work it's going back to the examples we

used just before right like it like you know if you're trying to show me ads or you're targeting me whether that's a

tailored marketing campaign or an email campaign or content syndication we need

to consider well one key concept is understanding of you know if your total Market there is

people who are in market and people who are out on market right so like I said earlier now that I have shipped my

package I am out of Market I'm not looking for somebody who's gonna ship my package show you can show me all the ads

you want you can send me all the sales probably I don't have a job to get done right so

um so I think that's the first thing also we very often forget is that as marketers we kind of

everyone and thinking that well they must respond right if I just send them I'll call them so then they must be if

my promotion is good enough they will respond they'll come and come and buy our products right but but really only a

small percentage by of the market is in Market to buy

right so if you are selling like in my case previously if we're selling CRM software I think companies

on average buy a new CRM software every five six years so if you say every five years that means like every year only 20

percent of the market is actually in Market to buy something and it means if you look at it on a

quality basis it's just five percent of the market would be in market so it's

we're kind of limited as a as a company in terms of how much we can sell this quarter because that's only that small

piece when you say and then my company selling to those

five percent I'm a small brand in that market let's say I'm a three percent

market share I would basically only get three percent of that five percent so

it's it's really a tiny segment out in the market we can go after in terms of demand capture

right so instead and that's where the brand building comes in again we need to focus on how do we

uh increase the awareness around Our Brands to all the people who are not currently in market so that once they

are you know they have a need they have a job to be done we hopefully get one of

the brands that they consider got it I I really resonate with the idea

of um we have to still advertise to the ones

that is out Market Because by the time they are in market and when you advertised to them like you see they

don't have they don't have credibility and Trust to to actually put us into the consideration and we will then lose them

um you mentioned also in our previous conversations that if we only focus keep on focusing off the bottom of the funnel

as our Technique we will soon basically be stagnant yeah and and has new regions

yeah and actually I've actually I've been there myself right in previous companies where me yeah we were growing right but then

and I think the challenge sometimes as a marketer right you know we do great the first quarter uh right and we get some

lead we generate some pipeline next quarter be expected to do a bit more right

um so and then a bit more a bit more every quarter is a bit more right at one point at some point you're gonna

hit that that Plateau where just there is you know you can't reach the if that's only five percent a market out

there and based on our the size of our brand right we can only you know if we're at three percent market share

brand We're not gonna get 80 of the demand out there because like I said earlier people buying from Brands they

know right so we will only get a small piece of That So eventually you'll get to a point where even if you have the

budget you simply cannot spend it on Performance Marketing right so um that's not to say like I I don't get

me wrong yet I got I'm about uh you know believing we do need to do Performance Marketing we do need to have a demand

capture campaigns um right but there's going to be a point where unless you invest in building a

brand and reaching a big audience you're gonna hit kind of like a ceiling where it's just really hard to keep growing

Corner over quarter right so like I think especially in technology like we've been asked every quarter to do 15

more than last quarter and then just keep going right so um you gotta hit that ceiling eventually

where it gets really really difficult plus also it's like I feel like if you don't invest in your brand also that

means you are kind of constantly have to invest a lot on your demand capture side to to which can does become quite extent

to the end whereas over time or years as you build your brand you then you know people start actually coming to your

without making the need to to do as much demanding or demand capture

um and again like I said we talked about earlier you can charge a premium because you are

now an established well-known brand right so um so you do need to to do both and like

if I when I talk to business owners I usually trying explain that to say like there's basically two things we need to do in

marketing one is that first pocket which is there we call it top of funnel you

something refer to as mental availability or brand building but it's like how do we how do we get increase

our reach how do we reach more people how do we build brand memories so that people like to get to know uh and and

consider and prefer our brand and then the other bucket is really the availability is like once people are in

Market we are super easy to find try and buy our products right so and I think it's you know you

need both especially also in B2B and also sometimes the feedback on the questions I get from from business

owners area but in v and B2B we don't really need brand building that's something for consumers that's not true

at all like we do need both there as well and I was just thinking about do anything about some good examples in

B2B brands that are doing this well and uh you know and it's because like

some of the client I met you know one is a you know very Industrial Products you

say like who you know who cares about branding in Industrial Products right but but actually within your category

like I said we don't always all have to be a new Nike or apple or Famous Brand like this but like within your category

or in your Market you should definitely build your brand right one example I was thinking I.T because I was driving home

and we had some construction happening across the road here was the brand caterpillar cat or

right so even if you're not in construction I'm sure you've seen their bigger excavators and or bulldozers

right these big yellow machines down on the road on the construction site and Super Famous Brand all right the cat

were there I think it's a like a triangle on the bread and they typically always I think they all yellow

right so um sorry if you're in need of a new bulldozer or an extra reader like

caterpillars it's definitely a famous brand that you would think about right so let's say how you know if you go back

to this two buckets right so that's where we recovery done really well in B2B to build a famous brand and they do

really well in terms of using what we call distinct brand assets right you see

them everywhere everywhere you go you see these big yellow machines with the name cap c a t on them right our

caterpillar um so they've done really well in terms of building that brand and at the same

time also um you know they've done great also in terms of their called the physical

availability in terms of making the product means you to to buy and try and I mean I'll try but easy to buy right

um so give an example like so um availability is it's not just you're

saying you know the consumers you usually think about it as you go down to the grocery shop and you need to buy logo X the product is actually available

on your shelf it's easy to find right but in B2B off maybe one way to make

your product and Innovation is through search right so when I go to Google Search I can find the product I can come

to your website and it's super easy on your website to buy the product right but sometimes also we need to

think about things like packaging pricing you can see a product like Caterpillar I

mean that's something a little bit like but I don't know what they cost but I would imagine they are probably very expensive Machinery right so maybe if

you are a small uh Construction Company you say loves to have one of those bulldozers for my next

project but I just don't have maybe a million dollars I don't know what they cost right but if you look at if you go

to caterpillar's website you'll see they actually also do Leasing right so if I just have a small project

I actually don't need to buy the machine I can just lease it for my next project right so that's a great way of saying as

probably a smart marketer there who says that how do we make the product you know available to the customers in a way that

more so you can reach a Beta Market more people can can use our product right so I think that's the the last

piece is that that's the physical availability is as marketer how do we make the product available to as many people as possible

I think the key thing here is um as a brand for a brand to grow you always need to look at how do we get

basically more customers to use our product right so your brand size is basically determined of treatment on the

number of customers you have right so you should always look at how do I expand that so of course typically

we look at how do I get customers from my competitors but you should also look at what you can call non-consumers

people who are not currently consuming your type of products um it's a way for us to make the product

available and so they actually can use the problem right and I think caterpillar is a good

example there is a there's probably smaller construction firm we say like we it's just not you know available to us

because we can't afford to buy our own certain product but by making it available through leasing or a rental

suddenly then I can actually also use the problem so now I can increase my my Brand's

reach I can reach people who in the past shouldn't use this product now I have increased my market right

so as marketers we need to kind of work on those two The Branding and the availability

sounds good I I like how you wrap up with giving us uh two Key summary uh

whereby we need to actually have a balance of investment brand investment mental ability of ability building up

the brand memories uh building a brand of understand the brand memories and ultimately also invest in the bottom of

the funnel to make sure the physical availability is there that includes not just it is available uh but if we do the

pricing and the packaging right we can potentially increase the market as you mentioned in include a non-consumer and

not just a competition competition customer in this case uh this is definitely a very insightful episode

um Henry I'm very very glad to have this second round review I've learned so much

more and for the audience um if you like this episode please uh

make sure you leave a review for us so that other listeners can also have a better way to find this so once again

thank you Henrik for joining us and thank you everyone for listening

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